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Post by twihlet on Sept 27, 2019 14:20:51 GMT
Can anyone tell me if 1938 tube stock was ever used on the Aldwych/Holborn shuttle, and if so between when and when?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 27, 2019 16:01:45 GMT
I don't think 1938 stock was ever scheduled for the shuttle, although it may have deputised for the regular stock in the period when 1938 stock ran on the rest of the Picc. However, the very similar looking 1935 stock was used on the shuttle during the 1950s, until replaced by 1959, and later 1973, stock.
1935 stock was formed of two car units, whereas 1938 stock was 3- and 4-car units.
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Post by twihlet on Sept 27, 2019 16:27:32 GMT
Thanks for that quick response. My reason for asking is that I am in the early stages of building a Gauge 3 model of a 1938 DM, I am too lazy to build a 3 or 4 car set, so was looking at this as a means of getting a prototypical train with the minimum of vehicles. It seems a bit unlikely that unmodified 1938 stock would be used as 2 DMs would be hugely overpowered, and I don't think there were any control trailers. maybe I should look at the 1935 stock more closely. This was the experimental stock which included the streamlined driving cars, was it not? and there were not many of them. Do any survive?
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Post by John Tuthill on Sept 27, 2019 16:38:10 GMT
Thanks for that quick response. My reason for asking is that I am in the early stages of building a Gauge 3 model of a 1938 DM, I am too lazy to build a 3 or 4 car set, so was looking at this as a means of getting a prototypical train with the minimum of vehicles. It seems a bit unlikely that unmodified 1938 stock would be used as 2 DMs would be hugely overpowered, and I don't think there were any control trailers. maybe I should look at the 1935 stock more closely. This was the experimental stock which included the streamlined driving cars, was it not? and there were not many of them. Do any survive? Check out Piers Connors "The 1938 Stock" Capital Transport. |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 27, 2019 17:18:27 GMT
Thanks for that quick response. My reason for asking is that I am in the early stages of building a Gauge 3 model of a 1938 DM, I am too lazy to build a 3 or 4 car set, so was looking at this as a means of getting a prototypical train with the minimum of vehicles. It seems a bit unlikely that unmodified 1938 stock would be used as 2 DMs would be hugely overpowered, and I don't think there were any control trailers. maybe I should look at the 1935 stock more closely. This was the experimental stock which included the streamlined driving cars, was it not? and there were not many of them. Do any survive? The 1935 units were 3 x 2-car sets (10009-11000 to 10011-11011) from the 1935 experimental Tube Stock Batch which were constructed as prototypes for the 1938 stock. Nine of the twelve such units constructed started as streamlined, but were later converted to non-trailers to match the non-streamlined 1938 stock, so you can guess why the remaining three units ended up at Aldwych! These ran until 1957, only to be replaced by 1934 standard stock, just to be awkward. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 27, 2019 20:55:01 GMT
The 1935 units were 3 x 2-car sets (10009-11000 to 10011-11011) from the 1935 experimental Tube Stock Batch which were constructed as prototypes for the 1938 stock. Nine of the twelve such units constructed started as streamlined, but were later converted to non-trailers to match the non-streamlined 1938 stock, . I think there's a typo there, and sorry my own post was slightly misleading. There were a total of twelve 2-car units of 1935 stock, numbered 10000/11000 to 10011/11011. The last three were non-streamlined, and closely resembled the later 1938 stock. Apart from the cab fronts of the streamliners, there were other differences from the 1938 stock in window spacing and the shape of the cab door. Seen here with a Standard stock trailer to make a 3-car unit The streamlined cars were converted to trailers around the same time as the 1949 stock was being built. It was the three non-streamlined units that were used on the Loughton-Epping shuttle, and later on the Aldwych shuttle. In 1955 car number 11010 hit the buffer stops at Aldwych, (perhaps in an attempt to get the long-planned Waterloo extension started?) and its cab had to be rebuilt. The result looked more like a 1938 stock car, presumably because spare parts were in stock for the larger fleet. I don't think 1938 stock could work as 2-car units in LT use because the compressors were fitted in the trailers. Of course, 2-car 1938 stock trains do have real life prototypes now.  |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 27, 2019 21:51:52 GMT
The 1935 units were 3 x 2-car sets (10009-11000 to 10011-11011) from the 1935 experimental Tube Stock Batch which were constructed as prototypes for the 1938 stock. Nine of the twelve such units constructed started as streamlined, but were later converted to non-trailers to match the non-streamlined 1938 stock, . I think there's a typo there, and sorry my own post was slightly misleading. There were a total of twelve 2-car units of 1935 stock, numbered 10000/11000 to 10011/11011. The last three were non-streamlined, and closely resembled the later 1938 stock. Apart from the cab fronts of the streamliners, there were other differences from the 1938 stock in window spacing and the shape of the cab door. Seen here with a Standard stock trailer to make a 3-car unit The streamlined cars were converted to trailers around the same time as the 1949 stock was being built. It was the three non-streamlined units that were used on the Loughton-Epping shuttle, and later on the Aldwych shuttle. In 1955 car number 11010 hit the buffer stops at Aldwych, (perhaps in an attempt to get the long-planned Waterloo extension started?) and its cab had to be rebuilt. The result looked more like a 1938 stock car, presumably because spare parts were in stock for the larger fleet. I don't think 1938 stock could work as 2-car units in LT use because the compressors were fitted in the trailers. Of course, 2-car 1938 stock trains do have real life prototypes now. One of the best ideas I've seen in print and probably more likely to've achieved some progress towards that end than anything else mooted. And, of course, given the resulting rebuild you've set down, twihlet now has at least half an excuse to run one 1938 unit as part of a 2-car set. |
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Oct 4, 2019 9:28:29 GMT
Mentioning the proposed extension to Waterloo, I have the Parliamentary papers that show the powers for the extension were granted in the mid 1960s from memory. If you care to do a search on here, I've copied the wording for that Act verbatim a few years ago.
As we know the powers were never used.
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Post by littlejohn on Oct 4, 2019 10:25:34 GMT
According to the excellent 'The Aldwych Branch' by Antony Badsey-Ellis and Mike Horne, Royal Assent was received on 5 August 1965.
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Post by ted672 on Oct 4, 2019 11:39:12 GMT
While in the Station Development Section at 55 Broadway in 1976 I was able to trawl through a number of filing cabinets full of drawings and schematics. Among these were drawings for the extension to Waterloo. It's a shame mobile phones weren't around then, although I doubt the drawings would have been for public consumption. I wonder if they were eventually transferred to the LT Museum.
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Post by goldenarrow on Oct 4, 2019 14:21:11 GMT
It's a shame mobile phones weren't around then, although I doubt the drawings would have been for public consumption. I wonder if they were eventually transferred to the LT Museum. I certainly hope so, the affects of consuming polyester film can be extremely detrimental! |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Oct 4, 2019 14:34:43 GMT
Thanks for that quick response. My reason for asking is that I am in the early stages of building a Gauge 3 model of a 1938 DM, I am too lazy to build a 3 or 4 car set, so was looking at this as a means of getting a prototypical train with the minimum of vehicles. It seems a bit unlikely that unmodified 1938 stock would be used as 2 DMs would be hugely overpowered, and I don't think there were any control trailers. maybe I should look at the 1935 stock more closely. This was the experimental stock which included the streamlined driving cars, was it not? and there were not many of them. Do any survive? The 1935 units were 3 x 2-car sets (10009-11000 to 10011-11011) from the 1935 experimental Tube Stock Batch which were constructed as prototypes for the 1938 stock. Nine of the twelve such units constructed started as streamlined, but were later converted to non-trailers to match the non-streamlined 1938 stock, so you can guess why the remaining three units ended up at Aldwych! These ran until 1957, only to be replaced by 1934 standard stock, just to be awkward. 35TS ran on the Ongar Shuttle from 1957 as 3car units(Standard Stock trailers added)until the late 60s.One unit was retained for articulated TS trials but the project was shelved. |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 4, 2019 20:44:59 GMT
35TS ran on the Ongar Shuttle from 1957 as 3car units(Standard Stock trailers added)until the late 60s. One unit was retained for articulated TS trials but the project was shelved. Articulated TS trials were for new trains for Piccadilly line, but we ended up with 1973TS. They were ahead of their times by a generation, the new Piccadilly line train order being for such trains! |
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Post by bruce on Oct 5, 2019 7:54:41 GMT
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 5, 2019 8:53:14 GMT
Articulated TS trials were for new trains for Piccadilly line, but we ended up with 1973TS. My understanding was that the articulated trains would have been for the Northern Line, but in the event the Northern got hand-me-down 1959 stock displaced by the new fleet built for the Piccadilly when the extension to Heathrow was authorised. To make up the numbers needed, the Northern also got a small fleet of new trains (1972 stock) built as a follow-on from, and using the same tooling as, the 1967 stock. Going back to the original question, I'm not sure 1938 stock could have been used on the Aldwych shuttle - did the 3-car units have the necessary two compressors to work solo? |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 5, 2019 12:08:19 GMT
Articulated TS trials were for new trains for Piccadilly line, but we ended up with 1973TS. My understanding was that the articulated trains would have been for the Northern Line, but in the event the Northern got hand-me-down 1959 stock displaced by the new fleet built for the Piccadilly when the extension to Heathrow was authorised. To make up the numbers needed, the Northern also got a small fleet of new trains (1972 stock) built as a follow-on from, and using the same tooling as, the 1967 stock. Going back to the original question, I'm not sure 1938 stock could have been used on the Aldwych shuttle - did the 3-car units have the necessary two compressors to work solo? I recall artist's impression of the inter-car connection at the time with opening little larger than modern inter-car doors, and luggage racks for airport traffic. At the time people were not encouraged to keep their luggage with them! I believe the problem was getting sufficient strength in the body end with materials of the time. Long London single-deck buses were tearing their bodies apart on corners around this time! |
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 5, 2019 16:52:42 GMT
Articulated TS trials were for new trains for Piccadilly line, but we ended up with 1973TS. My understanding was that the articulated trains would have been for the Northern Line, but in the event the Northern got hand-me-down 1959 stock displaced by the new fleet built for the Piccadilly when the extension to Heathrow was authorised. To make up the numbers needed, the Northern also got a small fleet of new trains (1972 stock) built as a follow-on from, and using the same tooling as, the 1967 stock. Going back to the original question, I'm not sure 1938 stock could have been used on the Aldwych shuttle - did the 3-car units have the necessary two compressors to work solo? That’s a good question. A fair few three car units of 1938 stock were fitted with two compressors but these were mostly based on the Northern Line during uncoupling. I don’t know if any were based on the Piccadilly Line. I would suggest that 1938 stock would not have been wasted on the Aldwych Shuttle when the capacity over the Standard stock was such an asset. In fact I understand that the 1938 stock was used in bulk in the peaks following each other at certain times. 1938 stock was used on the Epping-Ongar shuttle to deputise for the missing 1935 unit for a while. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 17:17:40 GMT
Just to update on previous points:
The Experimental 1935 Tube Stock ran on the Aldwych branch 1954-1957 in two-car formations. The Standard Stock trailers weren't added (in 1958) until after they went back to the Central for the Epping-Ongar branch in November 1957.
The Piccadilly Line's 3-car units of 1938 Tube Stock were (until c.1971) in UNDM-T-DM formation. The remaining three-car units (by then M-T-M on reformation) most likely would only have had one compressor because of the compressor problems on the 1938s from late-1969 (caused by the craftmen's strike in late-1969).
The 69 three-car units with two compressors were on the Northern, where they could work singly off-peaks, generally (but not always) on the City branch.
Traffic offering on the Aldwych branch didn't justify more than a two-car Pre-1938.
1959/62 three-car units only came to the Aldwych service because there was no stock of two cars that could replace the Standard Stock.
The Standard Stock operated the Aldwych service every 5 minutes (every 4 minutes in times past). The 1959/62 three-car trains operated every 7½ minutes (and the 1973 Stock operated every 9 minutes).
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Post by countryman on Oct 6, 2019 20:53:33 GMT
Just to update on previous points: The Experimental 1935 Tube Stock ran on the Aldwych branch 1954-1957 in two-car formations. The Standard Stock trailers weren't added (in 1958) until after they went back to the Central for the Epping-Ongar branch in November 1957. The Piccadilly Line's 3-car units of 1938 Tube Stock were (until c.1971) in UNDM-T-DM formation. The remaining three-car units (by then M-T-M on reformation) most likely would only have had one compressor because of the compressor problems on the 1938s from late-1969 (caused by the craftmen's strike in late-1969). The 69 three-car units with two compressors were on the Northern, where they could work singly off-peaks, generally (but not always) on the City branch. Traffic offering on the Aldwych branch didn't justify more than a two-car Pre-1938. 1959/62 three-car units only came to the Aldwych service because there was no stock of two cars that could replace the Standard Stock. The Standard Stock operated the Aldwych service every 5 minutes (every 4 minutes in times past). The 1959/62 three-car trains operated every 7½ minutes (and the 1973 Stock operated every 9 minutes). A bit picky perhaps, but weren't the 62 stock exclusively 4 car units, even numbered DMs from 1400 to 1750? In the 60s, 62 stock ran exclusively on the Central, the 59 stock as 7 car trains on the Piccadilly, along with a minority of 38 stock. (I used to travel to school on the Central from 1964 to 1971). |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 6, 2019 21:04:08 GMT
A bit picky perhaps, but weren't the 62 stock exclusively 4 car units, even numbered DMs from 1400 to 1750? In the 60s, 62 stock ran exclusively on the Central, the 59 stock as 7 car trains on the Piccadilly, along with a minority of 38 stock. (I used to travel to school on the Central from 1964 to 1971). Piccadilly Line had both 3-car and 4-car 1962 Stock allocated. These were later moved to the Northern Line before withdrawal. Of course 1959 Stock were originally delivered to the Central Line too! I'm sure @reganorak will fill in the details if needed! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 7, 2019 9:18:04 GMT
The history of the introduction of the 1959 and 1962 stock is complicated. 1959 stock was originally ordered, as 7 car trains (3-car and 4-car units), for the Picadilly Line. The Central was to have a new design based on the prototype 1960 stock but, because of the decrepit nature of the Standard stock on the Central (much of which had been stored in the open during the War, with little maintenance), there was no time to design a production run.
In order to hasten this process, the first cars of 1962 stock to be built were NDMs which could be added to 3-car 1959 stock units, allowing the 1959 stock to be diverted to the Central as a short term measure. (The Central uses 8-car trains, of course).
As the rest of the 1962 stock was delivered, it displaced the 1959 stock (less the additional NDMs) to the Piccadilly. However, the last unit of 1962 stock to be built (unit 1750) was a 3-car unit destined for the Picadilly Line. This was required to augment the fleet by the half-train necessary to replace the Standard Stock operating the Aldwych branch. (The 1973 stock also had an odd number of units (half-trains) for the same reason). This was the only 1962 stock allocated to the Picadilly Line.
In later life, and particularly after transfer of the 1959 stock to the Northern, and replacement of the 1962 stock by the 1992 stock, the two types could be found working together
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Oct 11, 2019 14:20:36 GMT
The history of the introduction of the 1959 and 1962 stock is complicated. 1959 stock was originally ordered, as 7 car trains (3-car and 4-car units), for the Picadilly Line. The Central was to have a new design based on the prototype 1960 stock but, because of the decrepit nature of the Standard stock on the Central (much of which had been stored in the open during the War, with little maintenance), there was no time to design a production run. In order to hasten this process, the first cars of 1962 stock to be built were NDMs which could be added to 3-car 1959 stock units, allowing the 1959 stock to be diverted to the Central as a short term measure. (The Central uses 8-car trains, of course). As the rest of the 1962 stock was delivered, it displaced the 1959 stock (less the additional NDMs) to the Piccadilly. However, the last unit of 1962 stock to be built (unit 1750) was a 3-car unit destined for the Picadilly Line. This was required to augment the fleet by the half-train necessary to replace the Standard Stock operating the Aldwych branch. (The 1973 stock also had an odd number of units (half-trains) for the same reason). This was the only 1962 stock allocated to the Picadilly Line. In later life, and particularly after transfer of the 1959 stock to the Northern, and replacement of the 1962 stock by the 1992 stock, the two types could be found working together Actually in the 70s there were 3 or 4 units of 62TS loaned to the Piccadilly,the only unit number I can remember is 1542 which I believe was involved in the collision at Leyton WB in which the driver died. |
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Post by t697 on Oct 11, 2019 15:59:58 GMT
I don't know whether this is relevant but I recall a period when the Picc Fleet still included a few 38TS trains as well as 1959/62TS. Maybe a 38TS 4 car could have been used as the Aldwych shuttle sometimes?
Anyone remember?...
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 11, 2019 16:05:09 GMT
I don't know whether this is relevant but I recall a period when the Picc Fleet still included a few 38TS trains as well as 1959/62TS. Maybe a 38TS 4 car could have been used as the Aldwych shuttle sometimes? Anyone remember?... I don't think so - from my understanding the furnished part of the platform was only just long enough for a 3 car 1962; once the station was equipped with TETS the berth had to be adjusted to use the previously unlit section of platform and was tight even for a 3 car 1973 stock train. |
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Post by 1018509 on Oct 11, 2019 16:23:07 GMT
As a train tech. based at Leicester Square part of our late shift duties involved prepping the Aldwych shuttle stabled overnight in the Aldwych platform at Holborn for service, excepting Tuesday and Friday nights when it returned to Northfields, for routine maintenance, if my memory serves me correctly.
The default unit was usually 1750.
I well remember on several occasions upon entering the cab at one end seeing a "gentleman of the road" leaving rapidly from the other end; I'm sure he probably returned one the prep was finished.
I seem to recall that the juice was turned off the Aldwych line once we had told the Line Controller that we had finished with the train and it was ready for service the following morning.
Was this the only place a rail anchor was used on the Underground? I have never heard of one anywhere else - I'm not even sure where the rail anchor was kept when not on the track; left where it was beside the running rail under the platform; or on the train. Does anybody recall?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 11, 2019 18:34:24 GMT
Was this the only place a rail anchor was used on the Underground? I have never heard of one anywhere else - I'm not even sure where the rail anchor was kept when not on the track; left where it was beside the running rail under the platform; or on the train. Does anybody recall? I think it was a requirement at Queen's Park as well. |
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Post by Colin D on Oct 11, 2019 19:57:40 GMT
Again, if memory serves me right, I believe a rail anchor was also used when stabling trains in tunnels beyond Elephant and Castle
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Post by jimbo on Oct 11, 2019 22:29:49 GMT
I think rail anchors were usually left on the track where they were used. Training centre warned of using them on running rail away from positive current rail, and told of train anchored to that juice rail in error!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 12, 2019 7:01:40 GMT
What is a rail anchor?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 12, 2019 8:05:51 GMT
It was a clamp which was connected to the rail at one end and a eye bolt on the headstock of the train at the other, used as a lasdt resory to stop a train running away if the handbrakes or parking brakes failed. Their use has now been superseded by Spring Applied Parking Brakes. You can see the rail anchor being removed from a 1973 Stock train at Holborn here. |
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