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Post by John Tuthill on Jan 23, 2019 22:43:19 GMT
Like it used to be? Ah! My memory isn't quite that clear so thanks for the reminder! As you say, various maps like the the 1985 map from the London Tube Map Archive show the Hainault gap. I guess a similar style could be adopted once again. As an aside, how uncluttered the 1985 map is compared to the latest issue
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 25, 2019 18:52:51 GMT
A shuttle would be shown how every other shuttle has been shown: a separate solid line for the core service, with a dotted line branching off at each end to denote occasional through services.
Some say the map is more cluttered, personally I think it's a reflection on how much London has evolved and grown in that time.
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Post by ijmad on Jan 27, 2019 16:36:52 GMT
Ah! My memory isn't quite that clear so thanks for the reminder! As you say, various maps like the the 1985 map from the London Tube Map Archive show the Hainault gap. I guess a similar style could be adopted once again. As an aside, how uncluttered the 1985 map is compared to the latest issue Yes, it seems more cluttered, but that is because the last 40 years has legitimately seen a huge amount of new transport infrastructure in London (JLE, DLR, Tramlink, Heathrow T5,, Overground, Air Line, TfL Rail/soon Crossrail). I'm not going to do an exact count but there must be about 250 stations on the 1985 map. There are around 420 on the current map!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 19:09:09 GMT
Most of Overground or TfL Rail isn't new though. It's the existing lines that were crammed into a Tube map.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 27, 2019 19:39:08 GMT
Can we stay on topic please - the evolution of the Underground map can be discussed elsewhere.
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Post by Chris M on Jan 27, 2019 19:39:30 GMT
But if they'd been branded as "London Underground" rather than "London Overground" there would be far fewer complaints. [edit: Sorry, superteacher, you pressed post only a few seconds before I did]
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 27, 2019 22:15:17 GMT
I wonder if they will show this on the tube map, with a gap at Hainault showing the need to change trains. The two places on the current Tube Map where two terminating services meet, Wimbledon and Clapham Junction, show them in the same way as other interchanges, as two blobs, rather than the "gaps" (or capacitors), that used to shown at Hainault and Epping.
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Post by stapler on Mar 4, 2019 22:29:51 GMT
Folks, has anyone got the text from Central Line News they could post?
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Post by drainrat on Mar 5, 2019 13:08:14 GMT
About new line manager?
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Post by stapler on Mar 6, 2019 8:16:34 GMT
No, about the likely content of WTT70 and confining the loop services to a shuttle - as mentioned by Aslefshrugged at the top of this thread...
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 6, 2019 8:54:02 GMT
No, about the likely content of WTT70 and confining the loop services to a shuttle - as mentioned by Aslefshrugged at the top of this thread... My post: postquotes information from the internal Timetables team (Establishment Planning)
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Post by ijmad on Mar 11, 2019 21:27:12 GMT
What would be the likely platform arrangement at Hainhault? I'm assuming P3 would serve the shuttle because P1 & 2 have the scissors crossover for services via Newbury Park. Looking at possible crossovers, would the shuttle run bidirectionally on what is the Northbound line between Grange Hill and Hainault? Is there a crossover or possible path through the depot I've not spotted? I'm afraid I've not been around long enough to know what they did the last time things ran this way.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 21:41:15 GMT
What would be the likely platform arrangement at Hainhault? I'm assuming P3 would serve the shuttle because P1 & 2 have the scissors crossover for services via Newbury Park. No there's no way to get to platform 3 from the outer rail (Woodford-Hainault) line, the shuttle will use platform 1 or 2, definitely not 3.
Looking at possible crossovers, would the shuttle run bidirectionally on what is the Northbound line between Grange Hill and Hainault? Is there a crossover or possible path through the depot I've not spotted? No, you definitely wouldn't be running passenger trains through the Depot. You're definitely right, you've spotted the problem and the reason why you can't use platform 3. You're exactly right. I'm afraid I've not been around long enough to know what they did the last time things ran this way. It was platform 2 at Hainault that they used last time. I believe exclusively platform 2 (at least at first), providing a nice cross-platform interchange with London services. Not sure ATP/ATO was ever installed through platform 1, I'm pretty sure it wasn't to begin with.
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Post by ijmad on Mar 12, 2019 1:19:59 GMT
Yeah, P2 makes sense now I look at it, actually. P1 & 3 still benefit from the scissors crossover, and as you rightly say, the Hainault shuttle will have a much easier time reversing.
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Post by stapler on Mar 12, 2019 6:48:18 GMT
My childhood memories of Hainault (which we used via the shuttle from Woodford), is that the train arrived and departed from the "old" platform rather than either of the "new" ones. This was mostly on Sundays....
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Post by ijmad on Mar 12, 2019 12:03:32 GMT
My childhood memories of Hainault (which we used via the shuttle from Woodford), is that the train arrived and departed from the "old" platform rather than either of the "new" ones. This was mostly on Sundays.... Assuming by the 'old' platform you mean P1? Yes, it seems to me from eyeballing the layout that could work too, as a train from P1 seems like it could be turned using a depot siding and then run south from P2. The shuttle could arrive and depart from P3 with moves that don't conflict that. I would guess the other end of the shuttle is much more challenging to operate, as looking at Woodford's track layout there doesn't seem to be any option other than tipping out the shuttle on P2 which blocks southbound trains from Epping, although perhaps there's no need to fully tip out, because you're not going via a siding.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 14:34:05 GMT
Assuming by the 'old' platform you mean P1? Yes, it seems to me from eyeballing the layout that could work too, as a train from P1 seems like it could be turned using a depot siding and then run south from P2. The shuttle could arrive and depart from P3 with moves that don't conflict that. I don't understand what you mean about Hainault Depot? If the shuttle terminates from Woodford in Hainault platform 1 it can go straight back out of platform 1 over the crossover (6828 and 6827 points if you're interested). There's simply no need to trouble the Depot at all. If the shuttle terminates from Woodford in Hainault platform 2 it can go straight back out of platform 2. The shuttle cannot terminate in platform 3. I would guess the other end of the shuttle is much more challenging to operate, as looking at Woodford's track layout there doesn't seem to be any option other than tipping out the shuttle on P2 which blocks southbound trains from Epping, although perhaps there's no need to fully tip out, because you're not going via a siding. You are quite right, but as that's what happens 3 times an hour at Woodford today, and has done for many years, it won't be a new problem.
It does go via the siding, it shunts into 21 road and then comes back out onto platform 3, unless there is service disruption in which case it can sometimes go straight back out over the crossover at the eastern end of the station.
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Post by ijmad on Mar 12, 2019 15:00:57 GMT
Assuming by the 'old' platform you mean P1? Yes, it seems to me from eyeballing the layout that could work too, as a train from P1 seems like it could be turned using a depot siding and then run south from P2. The shuttle could arrive and depart from P3 with moves that don't conflict that. I don't understand what you mean about Hainault Depot? If the shuttle terminates from Woodford in Hainault platform 1 it can go straight back out of platform 1 over the crossover (6828 and 6827 points if you're interested). There's simply no need to trouble the Depot at all. If the shuttle terminates from Woodford in Hainault platform 2 it can go straight back out of platform 2. The shuttle cannot terminate in platform 3.
In my haste it seems I transposed P1 and P3 in my mind Yes, I meant shuttle in P1.
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Post by stapler on Mar 12, 2019 21:20:25 GMT
If the shuttle is terminated in no 1 platform at Hainault, that makes proceeding to central London much more difficult for passengers - and for the last decade, people from Chigwell and Grange Hill have often preferred to go that way, because of an empty train, even though it's longer than via Woodford. If they travel in future by changing at Woodford, that will just exacerbate capacity problems on the "main line".
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Post by ijmad on Mar 12, 2019 23:33:55 GMT
If the shuttle is terminated in no 1 platform at Hainault, that makes proceeding to central London much more difficult for passengers - and for the last decade, people from Chigwell and Grange Hill have often preferred to go that way, because of an empty train, even though it's longer than via Woodford. If they travel in future by changing at Woodford, that will just exacerbate capacity problems on the "main line". TfL's journey planner says Grange Hill and Chigwell are both already slightly slower around the loop the 'long' way, but as you say, people like seats. However it'll be slower still with the need to change from the shuttle at Hainault. Changing at Woodford may then be significantly preferable to persuade a lot of people to go that way instead.
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Post by stapler on Mar 13, 2019 8:15:52 GMT
If the shuttle is terminated in no 1 platform at Hainault, that makes proceeding to central London much more difficult for passengers - and for the last decade, people from Chigwell and Grange Hill have often preferred to go that way, because of an empty train, even though it's longer than via Woodford. If they travel in future by changing at Woodford, that will just exacerbate capacity problems on the "main line". TfL's journey planner says Grange Hill and Chigwell are both already slightly slower around the loop the 'long' way, but as you say, people like seats. However it'll be slower still with the need to change from the shuttle at Hainault. Changing at Woodford may then be significantly preferable to persuade a lot of people to go that way instead. Quite. Which will just mean even more crush on the "main line".
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Post by towerman on Mar 15, 2019 12:27:41 GMT
When it was a 60TS shuttle it always used Plt 2.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 16, 2019 0:12:46 GMT
What also happens in the PM rush hour is that passengers for stations beyond the train's destination station will wait for a Woodford via Hainault at somewhere like Newbury Park in the summer or Gants Hill in the winter. The latter is because its warmer and dry!
it will peeve them if they have to change again at Hainault - especially if they arrive on the side platform. At least the cross platform interchange will mean that they wont need to use steps if they arrive on the side of the island platform which leads to the depot.
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Post by Chris L on Mar 16, 2019 10:01:51 GMT
What also happens in the PM rush hour is that passengers for stations beyond the train's destination station will wait for a Woodford via Hainault at somewhere like Newbury Park in the summer or Gants Hill in the winter. The latter is because its warmer and dry! it will peeve them if they have to change again at Hainault - especially if they arrive on the side platform. At least the cross platform interchange will mean that they wont need to use steps if they arrive on the side of the island platform which leads to the depot. There are lifts if stairs are a problem.
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Post by hobbayne on Mar 16, 2019 10:49:35 GMT
What also happens in the PM rush hour is that passengers for stations beyond the train's destination station will wait for a Woodford via Hainault at somewhere like Newbury Park in the summer or Gants Hill in the winter. The latter is because its warmer and dry! it will peeve them if they have to change again at Hainault - especially if they arrive on the side platform. At least the cross platform interchange will mean that they wont need to use steps if they arrive on the side of the island platform which leads to the depot. There is also the little used waiting room on platforms 2/3 which the cleaners sleep shelter in.
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Post by stapler on Mar 17, 2019 9:31:30 GMT
When it was a 60TS shuttle it always used Plt 2. Yes, but I think before that the "side" platform was more common. But that may have been something to do with the automatic train experiment. And since those days, usage of the Central Line has increased greatly so platform availability at Hainault must be an issue (as it is at Epping). More generally, the number of pax using the Loop is so small compared with those on the main line that I guess TFL won't over-obsess about inconvenience for them.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 17, 2019 11:14:14 GMT
When it was a 60TS shuttle it always used Plt 2. Yes, but I think before that the "side" platform was more common. But that may have been something to do with the automatic train experiment. And since those days, usage of the Central Line has increased greatly so platform availability at Hainault must be an issue (as it is at Epping). More generally, the number of pax using the Loop is so small compared with those on the main line that I guess TFL won't over-obsess about inconvenience for them. The frequency to Hainault in the peaks has remained pretty constant for a long time. Epping has increased a lot from extending trains which in the past terminated at Loughton or Debden.
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Post by stapler on Mar 17, 2019 16:43:32 GMT
Yes, but I think before that the "side" platform was more common. But that may have been something to do with the automatic train experiment. And since those days, usage of the Central Line has increased greatly so platform availability at Hainault must be an issue (as it is at Epping). More generally, the number of pax using the Loop is so small compared with those on the main line that I guess TFL won't over-obsess about inconvenience for them. The frequency to Hainault in the peaks has remained pretty constant for a long time. Epping has increased a lot from extending trains which in the past terminated at Loughton or Debden. Perhaps getting a bit off-topic, of course that is correct. But capacity issues are now getting serious, as Epping, approx 20 miles from London, attracts huge numbers of commuters from all over Essex and Herts, and even Suffolk and Cambs. Reason:if you (say) live at Hatfield Broad Oak or Dunmow, and don't mind a drive; fare from Epping z6 to eg Holborn z1, £5.10 (£3.10 before 0630, after 0930) fare from Bps Stortford, £17.50. That's why it has the biggest car park on the nework.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 17, 2019 22:21:13 GMT
The frequency to Hainault in the peaks has remained pretty constant for a long time. Epping has increased a lot from extending trains which in the past terminated at Loughton or Debden. Perhaps getting a bit off-topic, of course that is correct. But capacity issues are now getting serious, as Epping, approx 20 miles from London, attracts huge numbers of commuters from all over Essex and Herts, and even Suffolk and Cambs. Reason:if you (say) live at Hatfield Broad Oak or Dunmow, and don't mind a drive; fare from Epping z6 to eg Holborn z1, £5.10 (£3.10 before 0630, after 0930) fare from Bps Stortford, £17.50. That's why it has the biggest car park on the nework. I wonder, even if fares had been a little higher would Ongar and North Weald been truly busy at peak times had they remained open?
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Post by Chris M on Mar 17, 2019 23:54:40 GMT
Today, probably if they had direct trains to central London and sufficient car parking nearby to make commuting from there attractive.
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