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Post by jimbo on May 10, 2024 11:46:23 GMT
I think it is intended to reduce the Ealing service to release trains to the eastern branches when the fleet is restored.
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Post by starlight73 on May 10, 2024 12:38:45 GMT
btw, in the old days it was not unusual for electric traction equipment that is in excellent condition to be retained with trains just being rebodied. Especially on the Southern Electric (I am unsure if it ever happened on UndergrounD trains). This is true of (some of) the engineer’s battery locos according to the thread below. So this stays somewhat relevant: I guess this isn’t really feasible with modern motors that have a hard life. Plus, modern motor technology has moved on a lot I understood the WT54D traction motors date from the 1930s so pretty close to 90 years old right now. The vehicle structural design and basic electrical scheme I think is from 1937 but the current locos were built from 1964 to 1973. |
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Post by d7666 on May 10, 2024 12:42:39 GMT
btw, in the old days it was not unusual for electric traction equipment that is in excellent condition to be retained with trains just being rebodied. . Except all that was recycling resistor controlled DC traction kit for resistor controlled DC traction kit. These days DC kit (resistor or electronic) is obsolete, and in the case of 92TS at BER. Replace with new AC kit. As yet, no-one has got to the point where a type of train with AC kit has been available to donate that to a later type in a significant rebuild / refurbishment. It is feasible that the retractioned 321s and 455s could yield their new-ish kit for something at some point, but as there is not even anything out to tender that seems to allow for it, unlikely. And. Those days rebodying a traditional relatively light body superstructure with another of the same ilk on top a flat simple underframe; or a Mk3 type complete new body per 455/442. A modern tube train, 92TS onwards, is a single monocoque no matter how it was assembled or what it is built of - to "rebody" is in fact to build new. So all of that rebuilding / recycling that started with LSWR in Edwardian times last done in late 1980s with Rep/442 is somewhat outmoded and I put it to the forum irrelevant. |
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Post by d7666 on May 10, 2024 12:58:22 GMT
btw, in the old days it was not unusual for electric traction equipment that is in excellent condition to be retained with trains just being rebodied. Especially on the Southern Electric (I am unsure if it ever happened on UndergrounD trains). This is true of (some of) the engineer’s battery locos according to the thread below. So this stays somewhat relevant: I guess this isn’t really feasible with modern motors that have a hard life. Plus, modern motor technology has moved on a lot I understood the WT54D traction motors date from the 1930s so pretty close to 90 years old right now. The vehicle structural design and basic electrical scheme I think is from 1937 but the current locos were built from 1964 to 1973. But this is very much an exception and it only proves the rule to complete the saying but nothing else; engineers locomotives are somewhat different to revenue earning passenger train multiple units. The battery locos DC motors have really only survived as long as they have due to /relatively/ light duty, they just don't do the miles or hours. 92TS motors have done their time, which in plain english are f-f-f-d fairly well worn out. You'd not be recycling GE WT54s if they were on that type of duty cycle. Battery locos also retain their resistor contactor controls - these are inefficient and maintenance intensive. Only the battery loco lighter duties relay allow this to continue. w.r.t. maintenance, the best main line DC traction train with contactors / camshafts never ever got about 85-90% sustained utilisation whereas an AC motor fleet can be up to 96%. That difference is due to more closely spaced exams and more time needed on each exam. In round figures if you took the S stock fleet of 192 trains, if these had DC motors and resistor / camshaft control, you'd need around 210 trains just to cover the same workings because of all the down time in depots on longer maintenance. If you want an example, this refers to pre-covid, and pre-701s, late 2010s SWT retractioning their 90-odd 455s freed up so much depot maintenance time and space that they could take on 30 707s without having to expand physical maintenance space at Wimbledon (obviously they took up more stabling and cleaning space). This is one of the important elements to re-tractioning - you save space and time when not in traffic, and they are more available when in traffic. You'd not get any of this if recycling DC kit. Sorry, but again, what was done in C20 is no longer relevant to C21. |
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Post by spsmiler on May 11, 2024 10:10:41 GMT
Hello everyone, re: my comment about re-using motors when trains are re-bodied. I was thinking along the lines of a cheaper way to get new Central line trains whilst retaining the AC electric kit that is about to be fitted to the 1992ts fleet. Not DC kit.
After all, the motors (etc) will only be about 15 years old and might well have decades of life left in them.
Obviously the dynamics of the day and further advances in technology might see different solutions become viable - such as converting the whole line to maglev! I do see maglev tech as replacing steel rail tech as a future likelihood.
Simon
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Post by d7666 on May 11, 2024 15:49:30 GMT
Hello everyone, re: my comment about re-using motors when trains are re-bodied. I was thinking along the lines of a cheaper way to get new Central line trains whilst retaining the AC electric kit that is about to be fitted to the 1992ts fleet. Not DC kit. After all, the motors (etc) will only be about 15 years old and might well have decades of life left in them. OK I see what you mean. Where that aligns with what I posted is my comment about recycling AC kit that no-one has yet got to that point; in 15 y then yes we may well be there. 15 years is a long way away, much will change, including what has been put as options on existing orders, and until an actual contract has been signed, anything can be cancelled. Indeed, can even be cancelled after signing (e.g. main line 442s). But, if things stay as they are, where the option on the Siemens tube stock proves to be the Central line new trains c.2040, I would suggest 92TS new AC motors would not be suitable ? 8car 92TS has 16 motor bogies with 32 small-ish motors. 9car 24TS (Picc. config) have 8 motor bogies / 16 motors. The (so far) projected Central version is 11 car that I /guess/ has one more bogied car and one more non bogied car => 10 motor bogies / 20 motors. I can't see that the 92TS motors would meet the needed performance spec, as that is a 160% uprating, just to do the same. On top of that, suppliers have to do things like guarantee availability, reliabilty, etc whole life cycle. I would question that any new train builder would enter into a contrat for new trains designed to last +40 years but at year 0 installing +15 year old kit. Long time to go before we get to that stage, but as things are right now, I can't see it. |
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Post by gefw on May 11, 2024 18:19:59 GMT
I think it is intended to reduce the Ealing service to release trains to the eastern branches when the fleet is restored. Sounds worth considering (to turn some of the Ealing trains at North Acton and/or White City ) but not sure how much this gains. Looks like the current "temporary" Central Line timetable has employed this strategy |
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Post by gefw on May 13, 2024 8:29:40 GMT
It is also worth noting that the CLIP train is still very much a test train. In addition to this, it won't be in service for the rest of the month due to maintenance works. If the prototype unit is "off the road" for that long, it is likely/hopeful they doing some further upgrades/fixes (not just routine maintenance) |
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Post by xtmw on May 14, 2024 15:43:41 GMT
Exterior/interior work + some updates to the PIS and various other systems are taking place
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Post by gefw on May 15, 2024 9:28:00 GMT
Exterior/interior work + some updates to the PIS and various other systems are taking place Thanks for the update - that is a positive step forward in the testing/debugging/assurance work associated with the trial unit. |
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Post by jimbo on May 17, 2024 2:06:43 GMT
Interesting FoI gets to the heart of when will we see the refurbished trains? link to FoI Simple answer: not for a while. In almost a year's time, i.e. end March 2025 there will be two in service, that is one more than is currently complete! By end March 2026 there should be nine in service, so just over one completed every other month. Only by March 2027 are there 25 in service, less than a third of the fleet. They are then completed at 20 a year, which will take until March 2030 on current forecast. The last known forecast was by end of 2029, which enquiry quotes, and answer leaves 2030 out of the table, showing only 20 completed after 2028/29 year, but at 20 a year for previous two years, it is likely the final 20 will also take the full financial year! And that is only the latest forecast, which has continued to slip up to today! |
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Post by miff on May 17, 2024 6:38:11 GMT
Thanks Jim, that’s my FOI request but I read the answer here before noticing the email from TfL, sent yesterday.  My request was “What are the latest forecasts for the numbers of CLIP-upgraded 1992-Stock trains completed or entering service in each financial year from 2024/25 until 2029/30?” And the reply was CLIP trains in service: 2024/25 - 2 2025/26 - 9 2026/27 - 25 2027/28 - 45 2028/29 - 65 2029 - 85 So the aim is for Acton to ramp up to about 20 trains/year after the first few are completed. As Jim says, the table does not include 2030, consistent with the previously stated aim of completing the lot by the end of ‘29. If you reshuffle the above figures slightly I guess the aim might be for capability of producing 20 per calendar year from Jan ‘26 onwards. We’ll see. |
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Post by gefw on May 17, 2024 7:48:15 GMT
As per previous posts, Apparently works to progress the upgrade of trains is basically on hold pending satisfactory performance of the first train.
So surely the current focus should be to get the Test train sorted and mileage accumulated ASAP to increase confidence in the design so further trains can progress.
Note the situation is similar with the new DLR & Picc line trains.
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Post by miff on May 17, 2024 12:55:43 GMT
I assume that is exactly the current focus. Since the above figures predict no more than 2 trains in service by March ‘25 that doesn’t compromise the 2029 completion target ….. yet.
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Post by jimbo on May 18, 2024 22:02:35 GMT
At this rate, the Piccadilly Line will have a new fleet of trains well before the Central Line gets its fleet renovated, by then nearing 40 years old. The new Acton building was justified as working on CLIP, then doing the S stock overhauls before maintaining the NTfL fleets. The S stock overhauls have in consequence required new facilities elsewhere. And the NTfL fleet seems limited to the Picc Line for now.
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Post by d7666 on May 19, 2024 14:11:55 GMT
At this rate, the Piccadilly Line will have a new fleet of trains well before the Central Line gets its fleet renovated, by then nearing 40 years old. The new Acton building was justified as working on CLIP, then doing the S stock overhauls before maintaining the NTfL fleets. The S stock overhauls have in consequence required new facilities elsewhere. And the NTfL fleet seems limited to the Picc Line for now. What S-stock "new facilities" are there, and where, for what S-Stock "overhauls" please ? @ moderators : this might need splitting off into it's own thread ? |
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Post by gefw on May 19, 2024 16:19:26 GMT
What S-stock "new facilities" are there, and where, for what S-Stock "overhauls" please ? @ moderators : this might need splitting off into it's own thread ? Provision of a Heavy overhaul facility at Neasden depot is included in the 4LM scope and progress reported in TFL investment report (it was a One of the main Tfl milestones !!) - Not sure if similar also provided at a District depot. The same report also says the Met S stock Bogie overhaul is nearing completion & the District line overhauls is about to start. board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s21779/pic-20240228-item06b-Part%201%20-IPR-report.pdfWith reference to Acton - I believe the reference is to the expected midlife heavy overhaul/refurb/systems obsolesce replacement (ie akin to the central line CLIP works). In the past these were typically outsourced (ie done at supplier premises ), but this allows the inhouse option. |
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Post by d7666 on May 19, 2024 18:42:53 GMT
What S-stock "new facilities" are there, and where, for what S-Stock "overhauls" please ? @ moderators : this might need splitting off into it's own thread ? Provision of a Heavy overhaul facility at Neasden depot is included in the 4LM scope and progress reported in TFL investment report (it was a One of the main Tfl milestones !!) - Not sure if similar also provided at a District depot. Unless I am badly misunderstanding, surely those overhaul facilities are already provided under 4LM and which predate CLIP by a long way. Which surely again is part of the existing 4LM depot provision set up again pre dating CLIP. The way I read Jimbo's post was /additional/ and currently /non existing/ facilities for S-stock are to be added /further/ to later use of the CLIP site. The report, for example, refers to the Neasden upgrade to the heavy lifting shed; that was always planned - surely - irrespective of CLIP - it just was not needed early on in 4LM so delivered later i.e. currently; I do not see where /additional/ facilities come in. |
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Post by jimbo on May 20, 2024 5:17:33 GMT
The case for the Acton CLIP shed was made at the TfL Programmes and Investment Committee meeting on 8 March 2017 in an item: London Underground Rolling Stock Renewals Programme.There was insufficient spare Central Line trains to send them away for modification, but nowhere suitable on LU metals. By building the new Acton facility, p.33 of 34 at Appendix 8 – Trains Modification Unit Workshop at para 2.3.b claims avoidance of the cost of providing maintenance facilities at Neasden Depot. It was originally envisaged that the entire S stock fleet would be overhauled at Neasden, but when CLIP completed in December 2022, the Acton facility would be available for the first S8 overhauls, followed by the S7 fleet. Para 2.17 on p.15 of 34 says CLIP installation would run between April 2019 and December 2022.” I believe that provision has since been made at Neasden for overhauls, and I suspect that similar is being provided for the District Line. |
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Post by markregan on May 27, 2024 17:13:37 GMT
All S stock overhaul trains will be done at Neasden Depot. That includes heavy overhaul, gangway bellows and couplers. Acton REW cannot take the S stock due to design issues at Acton. The curve of the track is to severe for the S stock to get into the new AC14 shed.
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Post by jimbo on May 27, 2024 20:37:51 GMT
Thanks for clarification. I've been waiting since the 2017 meeting to learn that. Of course, the prolonged CLIP programme has also locked up the Acton building, apparently now to the end of the decade! I wonder if the new Picc trains will fit after then for their overhauls!
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Post by d7666 on May 27, 2024 22:36:48 GMT
The case for the Acton CLIP shed was made at the TfL Programmes and Investment Committee meeting on 8 March 2017 in an item: London Underground Rolling Stock Renewals Programme.There was insufficient spare Central Line trains to send them away for modification, but nowhere suitable on LU metals. By building the new Acton facility, p.33 of 34 at Appendix 8 – Trains Modification Unit Workshop at para 2.3.b claims avoidance of the cost of providing maintenance facilities at Neasden Depot. It was originally envisaged that the entire S stock fleet would be overhauled at Neasden, but when CLIP completed in December 2022, the Acton facility would be available for the first S8 overhauls, followed by the S7 fleet. Para 2.17 on p.15 of 34 says CLIP installation would run between April 2019 and December 2022.” I believe that provision has since been made at Neasden for overhauls, and I suspect that similar is being provided for the District Line. All S stock overhaul trains will be done at Neasden Depot. That includes heavy overhaul, gangway bellows and couplers. Acton REW cannot take the S stock due to design issues at Acton. The curve of the track is to severe for the S stock to get into the new AC14 shed. ta that clears up at least my confusion on the matter, if no-one elses |
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Post by xtmw on May 29, 2024 9:37:47 GMT
Unfortunately the CLIP train was cancelled yesterday due to a defect. Not running today either.
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Post by gefw on May 30, 2024 7:57:44 GMT
Thanks for the update XTMW,
Good news that the maintenance, assessment, repair & further modifications work (that has taken a few weeks) is complete & the first CLIP train about to resume proving "mileage".
Lets hope they resume soon and are positive in quickly proving fixes to the problems that apparently have effected/suspended the implementation programme/timescale for further trains.
You mentioned before that IO's can now operate the train, so great that you can "crank up the mileage" ASAP ie more that a couple of interpeak trips each weekday (previously limited by test crew availability etc)
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Post by xtmw on May 30, 2024 22:47:14 GMT
I don't know what specific works were done during the time it was out, but it should be out next week. Not 100% definite though.
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Post by towerman on May 31, 2024 11:14:44 GMT
It’s always bugged me why they plumped for 4x2 car units for 92TS,surely it would’ve been better to have 2x4 car units.
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Post by Chris M on May 31, 2024 14:22:04 GMT
I suspect there was desire during the planning stages to have the option of running 6-car trains.
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Post by silenthunter on May 31, 2024 15:26:20 GMT
I suspect there was desire during the planning stages to have the option of running 6-car trains. Also, they haven't closed the Ongar branch at that point - Ongar was put in the system as a destination option. |
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Post by towerman on May 31, 2024 16:48:08 GMT
I suspect there was desire during the planning stages to have the option of running 6-car trains. Also, they haven't closed the Ongar branch at that point - Ongar was put in the system as a destination option. Think they would’ve retained a couple of 60TS for the Ongar shuttle if it had been kept open. |
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Post by t697 on May 31, 2024 16:48:34 GMT
I don't think it was for Ongar. Not enough traction power there for more than a 4 car to run properly. We've discussed the 8 car test trips in another thread or early in this one perhaps, but I can assure folks the 8 car did not run at all well at Ongar!
Why not just 2 x 4 car units with a smattering of double-ended units? Good question. I seem to recall the guiding mind on the 92TS concept with all axles motored and so on still felt that ultimate flexibility in reforming trains in the depot when required was part of achieving good availability and this led to the 2 car unit concept. Good business for the autocoupler manufacturer since every car has one!
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