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Post by jimbo on Mar 15, 2024 1:00:07 GMT
So 4 years will take us to 2028, the latest target date for CLIP. Presume the Central Line will be without a full fleet until then to provide the service level envisaged 30 years back. And a return to full speed running must await all trains completed for compatibility, so also a 4 year wait, at least! "Challenges experienced in our supply chain, COVID and more recent cost inflation also mean that some suppliers entered administration and replacements had to be found. These factors taken together mean that we are now working for all the trains to be upgraded by the end of 2029." [CLIP funding Request ID: FOI-4278-2324 Date published: 14 March 2024] |
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Post by stapler on Mar 15, 2024 9:52:10 GMT
How long before some accountant (sorry, accountants!) realises, and some minister agrees, that patching up what will by then be 37-y-o trains, will be totally counterproductive? And what is the next catastrophe lurking round the corner to make the patching-up even more pointless?
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Post by A60stock on Mar 15, 2024 9:57:39 GMT
To be quite honest, this wouldnt be the first time LU are taking action on old trains:
The A stock was refurbished around the 35-40 year old mark!
At this stage, I dont get why the works will take so long following August, and I expected the majority of the fleet to have been done during 2025/2026
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 15, 2024 10:24:38 GMT
To be quite honest, this wouldnt be the first time LU are taking action on old trains: The A stock was refurbished around the 35-40 year old mark! The A Stock and other Stock refurbished in the late 1980s-early 90s needed to be refurbished following the findings of the King’s Cross fire recommendations. |
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Post by xtmw on Mar 15, 2024 13:25:57 GMT
It is worth noting that this much work hasn't gone into refurbishing a train before.
As Dstock7080 said the A stock and other stock were refurbished, but didn't have motors changed, a new DTS system etc.
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Post by t697 on Mar 15, 2024 16:45:06 GMT
It is indeed a complex work package so one would expect it to take a reasonably long time, but to get to here has taken at least as long or longer than a new stock project and if completion isn't until 2029 that's longer than the 92TS original construction phase took.
I had cause to read a document I wrote in 2017 on another topic which had to mention 92TS in passing and for that I'd been told, and naively included, completion at the end of 2023. I seem to recall I added a bit to what I'd been told as well!
Anyway I still wish the project well and hope they actually get on with more tangible progress soon.
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Post by t697 on Mar 15, 2024 16:47:54 GMT
It is worth noting that this much work hasn't gone into refurbishing a train before. As Dstock7080 said the A stock and other stock were refurbished, but didn't have motors changed, a new DTS system etc. A more comparable project might be the refurbishment and retractioning of class 455s. My impression is that went faster but I don't know for sure. |
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
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Post by gefw on Mar 15, 2024 17:37:48 GMT
Lets hope Tfl Engineering can wind up/allocate enough and experienced staff to get the testing, assurance & approvals done ASAP.
Then its largely down to the Tfl Acton workshops to take the opportunity/initiative to prove themselves and get the trains through the work as effectively as possible (and get the quality right).
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Post by jimbo on Mar 15, 2024 20:56:36 GMT
So 4 years will take us to 2028, the latest target date for CLIP. Presume the Central Line will be without a full fleet until then to provide the service level envisaged 30 years back. And a return to full speed running must await all trains completed for compatibility, so also a 4 year wait, at least! "Challenges experienced in our supply chain, COVID and more recent cost inflation also mean that some suppliers entered administration and replacements had to be found. These factors taken together mean that we are now working for all the trains to be upgraded by the end of 2029." [CLIP funding Request ID: FOI-4278-2324 Date published: 14 March 2024] That seems to be a slippage of around 18 months in a planned four-year programme since launch announcement in December, three months back! That's an extension of around a third. But remember, this is a bargain basement project of £500m. with maybe a 15-year life. The Picc new trains is a £3,050m. project for 40-year life to complete in four years. The Bakerloo trains is a £1,627m. project without funding at present. The post-King's Cross fire refurbishments were mainly replacement of fire-risk finishes, rather than replacement of train systems. |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 16, 2024 1:15:54 GMT
How much slippage time was caused by the pandemic?
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Post by Chris M on Mar 16, 2024 11:16:44 GMT
How much slippage time was caused by the pandemic? That will depend whether you are asking for direct impacts only (i.e. sites being shut down, etc) or also counting the indirect effects also (such as the supply chain issues), but in the latter case I suspect the answer will be almost all of it. |
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
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Post by gefw on Mar 16, 2024 15:44:04 GMT
It is worth noting that this much work hasn't gone into refurbishing a train before. As Dstock7080 said the A stock and other stock were refurbished, but didn't have motors changed, a new DTS system etc. A more comparable project might be the refurbishment and retractioning of class 455s. My impression is that went faster but I don't know for sure. Do you know whether the 455 work was done by the original train supplier or by a 3rd party - Part of the difficulty with the 92 stock rejuvenation is that Tfl have taken on the Principle contractor role and had the assocaited difficulties of not having the full design info/specs. |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 16, 2024 16:19:35 GMT
These were the first trains not designed in house. They were assembled on the cheap and it shows.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 16, 2024 21:14:43 GMT
The CLIP envisaged in 2015 is not the CLIP of today. Back in 2015 the idea was to keep the fleet operating until new articulated trains arrived in 2028-31. When the Government decided that a new fleet was a mere 'pipe dream', CLIP grew by 60% to keep the fleet operating a further ten years beyond its original target.
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Post by xtmw on Mar 18, 2024 17:02:15 GMT
Running today between W Ruislip and Hainault
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 202
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Post by gefw on Mar 19, 2024 8:33:26 GMT
I believe specific function testing/design verification has been done, so It seems that getting test mileage/hours "on the clock" is now important - does anyone have any idea of current score & targets ?
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Post by xtmw on Mar 19, 2024 8:47:39 GMT
It's running through the pipe in passenger service now for mileage accumulation.
I believe it's now just ironing out any defects / finishing touches / milage accumulation before it properly enters passenger service.
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 202
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Post by gefw on Mar 19, 2024 17:03:54 GMT
It's running through the pipe in passenger service now for mileage accumulation. I believe it's now just ironing out any defects / finishing touches / milage accumulation before it properly enters passenger service. I hope they also need to schedule in Instructor Operator training soon - that will enable more use /experience (rather than being limited to Test crew availability/breaks etc) |
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Post by miff on Mar 20, 2024 18:32:23 GMT
"Challenges experienced in our supply chain, COVID and more recent cost inflation also mean that some suppliers entered administration and replacements had to be found. These factors taken together mean that we are now working for all the trains to be upgraded by the end of 2029." [CLIP funding Request ID: FOI-4278-2324 Date published: 14 March 2024]For completion by 2029 this means Acton's output'll need to be about 16 or 17 trains per year 2025-2029. I'm assuming no more than 5 or 6 (if that)'ll be completed by the end of 2024 since the second completed train isn't expected until August. |
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 202
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Post by gefw on Mar 21, 2024 14:42:35 GMT
"Challenges experienced in our supply chain, COVID and more recent cost inflation also mean that some suppliers entered administration and replacements had to be found. These factors taken together mean that we are now working for all the trains to be upgraded by the end of 2029." [CLIP funding Request ID: FOI-4278-2324 Date published: 14 March 2024]For completion by 2029 this means Acton's output'll need to be about 16 or 17 trains per year 2025-2029. I'm assuming no more than 5 or 6 (if that)'ll be completed by the end of 2024 since the second completed train isn't expected until August. I am not sure of the capacity of the new facility at Acton - but just like any other supplier, they should be asked to look at all options to maximise productivity |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 21, 2024 15:28:14 GMT
Upon opening in 2021 it was suggested 5 8-car trains could be dealt with at Acton simultaneously
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Post by imran on Mar 21, 2024 17:51:08 GMT
Can’t wait until I ride on one of these trains myself!
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 202
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Post by gefw on Mar 21, 2024 19:35:00 GMT
Upon opening in 2021 it was suggested 5 8-car trains could be dealt with at Acton simultaneously So that equates to about 3 months to do each train (once they get into the full swing & subject to parts/materials availability) |
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Post by xtmw on Mar 21, 2024 23:04:33 GMT
TTN99/24 quotes:
* = CLIP train running between North Acton and Ruislip Gardens
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Post by xtmw on Mar 27, 2024 20:39:39 GMT
Been running past few days between Ruislip Gardens and Grange Hill v Woodford. Running into a few issues but nothing too major
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Post by superteacher on Mar 28, 2024 8:23:24 GMT
Hadn't actually realised the completion date was 2029! That's a seriously slow refurb project!
I suppose it buys TFL some more time before they have to replace the fleet with the New Tube For London, which at this rate will be obsolete itself . . .
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Post by imran on Mar 28, 2024 9:03:15 GMT
I mean it was supposed to be completed last year, but Covid put pay to that!
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Post by xtmw on Mar 28, 2024 9:45:39 GMT
I believe CLIP train #2 has been delayed till December
CLIP train #1 is in service running through the pipe but with technicians onboard due to radio problems. I/OPs are now driving them instead of test train operators.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 28, 2024 11:19:34 GMT
Why is this programme slipping so much at present? Is it technical problems, or the restricted funding for this year's TfL budget?
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Post by xtmw on Mar 28, 2024 11:29:57 GMT
Considering the train has been stripped and you're trying to put modern equipment into a train from the 90s you're bound to run into problems. For example the traction problems and most recent radio problems.
There was a memo around to staff a few weeks ago saying CLIP production had been suspended! But I believe number 2 is just delayed from August to December which is expected. Most likely the CLIP team have run into some problems on their end or as you said it could be financial problems.
But fingers crossed number 1 gets its faults ironed out ready for 'proper' passenger service. Right now it's just operating once a day between Ruislip Gardens and Grange Hill. Yesterday it did the trip to Hainault depot and then back down to Ruislip depot!
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