class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 15, 2018 13:30:23 GMT
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 15, 2018 13:53:15 GMT
No Person Operation. Named by analogy with OPO - One Person Operation.
NOPO is sometimes contrasted with Unattended Train Operation (UTO) where there is no staff member on the train, but sometimes the term is ambiguous between that and the DLR's mode of operation with a staff member on every train who is not (usually) responsible for driving it.
DOO (Driver Only Operation) is the term NR for what LU call OPO. In practice there is essentially no difference between the two.
ATO (Automatic Train Operation) is one method of making a train move, and it somewhat independent of the number of staff on board (You can't have NOPO or UTO without it, but you can have ATO UTO, NOPO, OPO, or crew operation).
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 15, 2018 16:22:14 GMT
Thanks, Chris.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 15, 2018 19:36:32 GMT
Worth noting that a lot of the current disputes on National Rail are about expansion of DCO (Driver Controlled Operation) rather than DOO. DCO retains a Conductor/Guard, but they aren't responsible for operating the doors (the Driver is).
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Post by banana99 on Oct 15, 2018 20:03:37 GMT
I can't find this position controversial. Is there an automatic railway anywhere in the world without supervised departure and/or PEDs? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the same document quoted by aslefshrugged: "Benchmark Finding: PEDs are the dominant track protection system for modern fully automatic railways, with very few operating without them (those that do are predominantly older systems)." |
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Post by drainrat on Oct 16, 2018 10:48:00 GMT
Not to mention there is a marked difference between ATO and NOPO (No person operation), which is often confused by the public as the media uses it as a way to undermine any driver actions, same as the case here, which is, "If you take action, they'll just get rid of you!".......well, no, no they won't, unfortunately more and more drivers actually believe what the press tells them, rather than listening to people 'who know' in the industry. The underground is over 150 yrs old, it's struggling to stay on top of bare maintenance as it is, deep tube isn't capable of NOPO, I'd say neither is Sub Surface either, it's not just a case of 'change the trains with no drivers cab' which is what the press usually rolls out cue any mention of action, it's the infrastructure needed to support it, which just can't be funded at the moment, and less likely to be post-brexit, and the political will has never really been there, it's an American mindset to make people redundant en masse and not really care about it too much "Bidness is bidness!" but something that hasn't really sat well with Brits, though our society now has fast become very much americanised, 'Snake oil' salesmen et al. Have a look at the new Glasgow Subway trains. They've been designed to have their cabs removed in the future. And..... |
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Post by drainrat on Oct 16, 2018 10:49:54 GMT
Not to mention there is a marked difference between ATO and NOPO (No person operation), which is often confused by the public as the media uses it as a way to undermine any driver actions, same as the case here, which is, "If you take action, they'll just get rid of you!".......well, no, no they won't, unfortunately more and more drivers actually believe what the press tells them, rather than listening to people 'who know' in the industry. The underground is over 150 yrs old, it's struggling to stay on top of bare maintenance as it is, deep tube isn't capable of NOPO, I'd say neither is Sub Surface either, it's not just a case of 'change the trains with no drivers cab' which is what the press usually rolls out cue any mention of action, it's the infrastructure needed to support it, which just can't be funded at the moment, and less likely to be post-brexit, and the political will has never really been there, it's an American mindset to make people redundant en masse and not really care about it too much "Bidness is bidness!" but something that hasn't really sat well with Brits, though our society now has fast become very much americanised, 'Snake oil' salesmen et al. Don't worry. Journalists and newspaper editors will be replaced by AI soon. I'm sure they have already, fast approaching the technological singularity and we believe we'll be a part of it post 😳 |
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Post by trt on Oct 16, 2018 11:39:13 GMT
Don't worry. Journalists and newspaper editors will be replaced by AI soon. I'm sure they have already, fast approaching the technological singularity and we believe we'll be a part of it post 😳 I have no fear that computers have already replaced news writers... If they had, then one can guarantee that although the relevance and general sensibility of the articles would still resemble the poor quality that we suffer at present, at least the spelling would be accurate. |
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Post by banana99 on Oct 16, 2018 20:18:25 GMT
I would hate to do some jobs that humans did in the past and computers do these days e.g. digging a tunnel. I am sure that it will be the same in the future.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 16, 2018 20:57:18 GMT
Back on topic please.
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Post by banana99 on Oct 16, 2018 21:15:17 GMT
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 17, 2018 8:11:15 GMT
No, they should get one of those robots that they had at the very beginning of the first 'RoboCop'. |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 17, 2018 8:41:53 GMT
Final reminder to stay on topic otherwise the thread will be locked.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 17, 2018 16:08:59 GMT
All of the forum staff are volunteers who give their time so that this well respected forum continues to run well. The respect we have from senior management allows members on occasion unique privileged access to parts of the network. It is quite clear from the colour of the typeface when forum staff are acting in a personal capacity and when they are acting as staff.
The admin team take a dim view of any member who acts contrary to a forum staff request.
On topic please.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 17, 2018 17:21:35 GMT
All of the forum staff are volunteers who give their time so that this well respected forum continues to run well. The respect we have from senior management allows members on occasion unique privileged access to parts of the network. It is quite clear from the colour of the typeface when forum staff are acting in a personal capacity and when they are acting as staff.
The admin team take a dim view of any member who acts contrary to a forum staff request.
On topic please. I'm a little confused. After the initial 'on topic' requests (which seemed to be related to a multi-post divergence onto the general topic of AI, that was not related to the thread subject), there have only been two non mod/staff comments, and they were both on topic, albeit somewhat flippant. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Oct 17, 2018 17:29:50 GMT
All of the forum staff are volunteers who give their time so that this well respected forum continues to run well. The respect we have from senior management allows members on occasion unique privileged access to parts of the network. It is quite clear from the colour of the typeface when forum staff are acting in a personal capacity and when they are acting as staff.
The admin team take a dim view of any member who acts contrary to a forum staff request.
On topic please. I'm a little confused. After the initial 'on topic' requests (which seemed to be related to a multi-post divergence onto the general topic of AI, that was not related to the thread subject), there have only been two non mod/staff comments, and they were both on topic, albeit somewhat flippant. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 26, 2018 15:24:11 GMT
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Post by superteacher on Nov 26, 2018 16:56:17 GMT
I would be very interested to see how they overcome the issue of a potentially incapacitated train operator. In view of Dstock7080's update, there is further scope for discussion. Due to this, the thread will be unlocked provided that the previously issued staff guidance (above) is followed. Any further incidents will be viewed in a serious light.
Carry on nicely.  |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 26, 2018 17:15:16 GMT
As stated, the solution is still being finalised.
In very simple terms though, my understanding is that when a cab is active a key will be required to access the cab from the passenger saloon area. When the cab is not active, it can be accessed as today.
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Post by nig on Nov 27, 2018 10:52:18 GMT
The cab is accessed from the saloon via the J door by a key which only the driver has.
• There will also be an emergency access button which can be pushed to open the cab door, but with a delay.
• If the access button is used, an alarm sounds in the drivers cab and the driver can then override it to stop the door opening if necessary.
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Post by brigham on Nov 28, 2018 8:47:21 GMT
That solves it nicely. The driver remains in charge unless incapacitated.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 28, 2018 10:30:25 GMT
I hope the time allowance for automatic unlocking is sufficient for the driver to stop the train in normal (non- emergency) way?
S Stock J doors cannot be reached while driving.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 28, 2018 12:59:23 GMT
I hope the time allowance for automatic unlocking is sufficient for the driver to stop the train in normal (non- emergency) way? S Stock J doors cannot be reached while driving. Either that or the override can be applied from the driving position. |
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Post by Dmitri on Nov 28, 2018 15:46:57 GMT
I hope the time allowance for automatic unlocking is sufficient for the driver to stop the train in normal (non- emergency) way Is it really necessary to allow external access while train is in motion? |
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Post by banana99 on Nov 29, 2018 0:19:19 GMT
I hope the time allowance for automatic unlocking is sufficient for the driver to stop the train in normal (non- emergency) way Is it really necessary to allow external access while train is in motion? How do the DLR Captains cope when manually driving? I'm finding it very difficult to understand the issue here. And I suspect that "external access" will turn out to be more important than sealing the cab to outsiders. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 29, 2018 1:07:11 GMT
Either that or the override can be applied from the driving position. The mock-up I’ve seen has a box mounted each side of the J door only. I'm finding it very difficult to understand the issue here. And I suspect that "external access" will turn out to be more important than sealing the cab to outsiders. My issue is; train travelling along, passenger activates egress button; how many seconds before access is gained; while driver, who cannot reach door while driving, brings the train to a stand? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 29, 2018 6:52:00 GMT
Unless it is arranged so that the egress button can only work when the train is not in motion? But that would add an extra level of complication, as it would have to interact with the braking system.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Nov 29, 2018 9:05:57 GMT
Either that or the override can be applied from the driving position. The mock-up I’ve seen has a box mounted each side of the J door only. I'm finding it very difficult to understand the issue here. And I suspect that "external access" will turn out to be more important than sealing the cab to outsiders. My issue is; train travelling along, passenger activates egress button; how many seconds before access is gained; while driver, who cannot reach door while driving, brings the train to a stand? Surely, if the situation is so desperate that entry is needed into the driver's cab, the driver can just get up and the train will stop itself, albeit rather rapidly. One of the problems with discussing this is that the majority of situations where passengers need access to the cab and the driver is unable to grant it are, whilst possible, wildly unlikely. Most would require a driver incapacitation and a fire breaking out. This pretty much implies a crash, and if a crash is bad enough to incapacitate the driver, what is the likely hood that the passengers would be able to open the front escape door anyway? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 29, 2018 11:22:30 GMT
My issue is; train travelling along, passenger activates egress button; how many seconds before access is gained; while driver, who cannot reach door while driving, brings the train to a stand? Surely, if the situation is so desperate that entry is needed into the driver's cab, the driver can just get up and the train will stop itself, albeit rather rapidly. The problem we are trying to solve is not how a passenger (or a member of staff, for that matter) can open the door in an emergency, but how to stop a passenger breaking into the cab when it isn't an emergency? So the question is, or should be, will the driver be able to over-ride an attempt to break into the cab whilst still driving the train? Or, if the driver does have to leave the controls, (whether in a controlled manner or causing an emergency stop) how quickly can they reach the over-ride switch to prevent a break in? |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Nov 29, 2018 11:51:58 GMT
Surely, if the situation is so desperate that entry is needed into the driver's cab, the driver can just get up and the train will stop itself, albeit rather rapidly. The problem we are trying to solve is not how a passenger (or a member of staff, for that matter) can open the door in an emergency, but how to stop a passenger breaking into the cab when it isn't an emergency? So the question is, or should be, will the driver be able to over-ride an attempt to break into the cab whilst still driving the train? Or, if the driver does have to leave the controls, (whether in a controlled manner or causing an emergency stop) how quickly can they reach the over-ride switch to prevent a break in? Indeed. The point I was trying to make (somewhat clumsily, as I never explicitly stated it), was that as any legitimate requirement for the public to access the cab would be unusual, and any requirement for them to need gain access in a hurry with the driver incapacitated* vanishingly unlikely, there should be no problem allowing a lengthy hesitation before the door unlocked. Certainly adequate time for the driver to respond. In any case it would be vastly better if the driver could cancel the admittance request from his driving positions as, otherwise, he might need to repeatedly stop the train to thwart some joker who thought getting into the cab would be 'a laugh'. *Presumably the driver could open the door before the delay had completed. |
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