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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 19, 2018 15:48:47 GMT
Ballot result:
eligible to vote: 2274
ballots returned: 1294
eligible votes cast: 1292
% of votes cast against eligible to vote: 56.9%
yes: 1151
no: 141.
yes votes as % of those eligible to vote: 50.6%.
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Post by u03drp on Sept 19, 2018 16:41:42 GMT
Not an overwhelming majority of eligible voters(!), but a landslide of votes cast! Ballot result: eligible to vote: 2274 ballots returned: 1294 eligible votes cast: 1292 % of votes cast against eligible to vote: 56.9% yes: 1151 no: 141. yes votes as % of those eligible to vote: 50.6%. |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Sept 19, 2018 16:51:29 GMT
and a vote is a vote! (whatever that means)
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Post by drainrat on Sept 19, 2018 17:51:09 GMT
But serious as the risk of an attack on a driver is, there is also the real threat of easy access to a cab being used by those intent on causing death and destruction. It beggars belief that at a time of heightened security alert, Transport for London refuse to take this threat seriously. That bit alone is quite astonishing. But anyone can walk in to most maintenance depots unchallenged, passengers walk through staff accommodation quite frequently, security gates at many supposed 'secure' locations broken, left wide open etc. etc. we live in an illusion of heightened security, to me, it's never really been any better/worse than it ever was I'm afraid and TfL, like any other hungry corporate see security as an area for cost cutting 😬 |
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Post by banana99 on Sept 19, 2018 19:33:23 GMT
But serious as the risk of an attack on a driver is, there is also the real threat of easy access to a cab being used by those intent on causing death and destruction. It beggars belief that at a time of heightened security alert, Transport for London refuse to take this threat seriously. That bit alone is quite astonishing. But anyone can walk in to most maintenance depots unchallenged, passengers walk through staff accommodation quite frequently, security gates at many supposed 'secure' locations broken, left wide open etc. etc. we live in an illusion of heightened security, to me, it's never really been any better/worse than it ever was I'm afraid and TfL, like any other hungry corporate see security as an area for cost cutting 😬 Station staff on platforms? I really can't help but think that this shouldn't be a massive issue. Drivers are already far less accessible than most other staff. I know that it's an emotional subject but sometimes a dispassionate look is required. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 20:31:07 GMT
When I got off of a terminating train at Woodford yesterday at around 5:15 two or three carriages had people on them who needed ushering off by the member of staff - one of them with about half a dozen people on it. Two individuals who were apparently unable to read and process the message "terminates here" on the dot matrix indicator boarded the carriage that I got off, but left when sonia announced that the train terminated there. Those on the other two or three carriages managed to miss all of this automagical information and were just sitting waiting to be asked to leave. If not for manual detrainment those people would have been delayed on their journey by the time it takes to get in and out of the siding and then cross back over to the westbound platform and board a London-bound train. It also represents a small safety risk. I'm sorry, but for as long as there are people using the Underground, I want people staffing the Underground. Once the computer people inflict 'the singularity' on us and there are only robots who have jobs to go to and places to travel to, I'm quite happy for them to travel on driverless trains with automated announcements, automatic ticket machines and automatic signalling, but until then I want my railways (operated) by the people for the people.
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Post by drainrat on Sept 19, 2018 20:49:22 GMT
But anyone can walk in to most maintenance depots unchallenged, passengers walk through staff accommodation quite frequently, security gates at many supposed 'secure' locations broken, left wide open etc. etc. we live in an illusion of heightened security, to me, it's never really been any better/worse than it ever was I'm afraid and TfL, like any other hungry corporate see security as an area for cost cutting 😬 Station staff on platforms? I really can't help but think that this shouldn't be a massive issue. Drivers are already far less accessible than most other staff. I know that it's an emotional subject but sometimes a dispassionate look is required. I agree, it isn't practical to place drivers in 'Fort Knox', maintenance on J doors isn't always a priority, I can get into any driving cab without a key, I know how to, it isn't difficult, and passengers aware too |
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Post by banana99 on Sept 19, 2018 22:12:59 GMT
I want my railways (operated) by the people for the people. It's staggering how airports, the DLR and other similar railways manage to get away without killing or injuring people. |
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Post by drainrat on Sept 20, 2018 4:15:43 GMT
I want my railways (operated) by the people for the people. It's staggering how airports, the DLR and other similar railways manage to get away without killing or injuring people. Without people and for the people 😳 |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 20, 2018 7:11:57 GMT
I want my railways (operated) by the people for the people. It's staggering how airports, the DLR and other similar railways manage to get away without killing or injuring people. The DLR has staff and just like the Tube people get killed or injured. Airport railways don't have anything like the level of passenger numbers compared to the Tube but all the ones I've been on had platform edge doors. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 20, 2018 10:20:55 GMT
It's staggering how airports, the DLR and other similar railways manage to get away without killing or injuring people. The DLR has staff and just like the Tube people get killed or injured. Airport railways don't have anything like the level of passenger numbers compared to the Tube but all the ones I've been on had platform edge doors. Airport railways also have fully segregated track and are much shorter than other systems (Heathrow Pods: 3.8km, Heathrow T5 APM: 0.67km, Gatwick inter-terminal: 0.75km, Stanstead: 3.2km, Birmingham: 0.85km). Other than the Pods, they also have simple track layouts. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 20, 2018 11:56:42 GMT
When I was training as a station assistant (not CSA) we were instructed that if we feel threatened we should go somewhere with a door that could be secured which in most cases that would be the station control room. On train the only place we have is the cab which as has been demonstrated cannot be secured.
If a member of station staff is assaulted they will be sent home or to hospital as necessary. If a train driver is assaulted on an ATO line the train will carry on until the next station (providing the emergency brake wasn't tripped during the assault) and they can then be sent home or to hospital but if the driver is assaulted on a non-ATO line the train stops where it is, any assistance will have to go to the train (and driver) which obviously is going to take a lot longer.
On the operational side of things if a member of station staff is unable to continue working the station possibly would have to close until replacement staff arrive which would be inconvenient for passengers who want to use that station but usually there are alternative routes available. If a driver is unable to continue working the train stays where it is until a replacement driver can arrive and the line part suspended which is going to inconvenience a lot more passengers, especially if they're stuck on a train between stations.
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Post by trt on Sept 20, 2018 12:04:21 GMT
When I was training as a station assistant (not CSA) we were instructed that if we feel threatened we should go somewhere with a door that could be secured which in most cases that would be the station control room. On train the only place we have is the cab which as has been demonstrated cannot be secured. If a member of station staff is assaulted they will be sent home or to hospital as necessary. If a train driver is assaulted on an ATO line the train will carry on until the next station (providing the emergency brake wasn't tripped during the assault) and they can then be sent home or to hospital but if the driver is assaulted on a non-ATO line the train stops where it is, any assistance will have to go to the train (and driver) which obviously is going to take a lot longer. On the operational side of things if a member of station staff is unable to continue working the station possibly would have to close until replacement staff arrive which would be inconvenient for passengers who want to use that station but usually there are alternative routes available. If a driver is unable to continue working the train stays where it is until a replacement driver can arrive and the line part suspended which is going to inconvenience a lot more passengers, especially if they're stuck on a train between stations. So basically this is a quite reasonable call for a reappraisal of risk and mitigation. Should be routine, but there's a disagreement over the risk assessment between the drivers and the management. Is that a reasonable summary? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 21, 2018 5:38:23 GMT
Two days after ballot result, S Stock already appearing with ‘plastic glass’ rather than ring-pull version.  |
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Post by drainrat on Sept 21, 2018 11:20:26 GMT
Two days after ballot result, S Stock already appearing with ‘plastic glass’ rather than ring-pull version. Wont make cab more secure, these are easily 'bypassed' |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 21, 2018 12:41:47 GMT
It's at least a start though.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 21, 2018 13:33:40 GMT
It looks a lot less inviting, so will deter some people - especially drunks. That's got to be better than nothing, especially as any significant alterations will take time to design, test and install.
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Sept 22, 2018 7:18:27 GMT
Wont make cab more secure, these are easily 'bypassed' But they must make it that little bit harder to break in. |
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Post by drainrat on Sept 22, 2018 15:49:04 GMT
Wont make cab more secure, these are easily 'bypassed' But they must make it that little bit harder to break in. Weve had these for a while on W&C line, and they are very easy to pull out and open, don't even need J door key either. Older doors system were always harder to get through, no J door key=No entry, for certain |
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Post by banana99 on Sept 22, 2018 23:01:24 GMT
When I was training as a station assistant (not CSA) we were instructed that if we feel threatened we should go somewhere with a door that could be secured which in most cases that would be the station control room. On train the only place we have is the cab which as has been demonstrated cannot be secured. If a member of station staff is assaulted they will be sent home or to hospital as necessary. If a train driver is assaulted on an ATO line the train will carry on until the next station (providing the emergency brake wasn't tripped during the assault) and they can then be sent home or to hospital but if the driver is assaulted on a non-ATO line the train stops where it is, any assistance will have to go to the train (and driver) which obviously is going to take a lot longer. On the operational side of things if a member of station staff is unable to continue working the station possibly would have to close until replacement staff arrive which would be inconvenient for passengers who want to use that station but usually there are alternative routes available. If a driver is unable to continue working the train stays where it is until a replacement driver can arrive and the line part suspended which is going to inconvenience a lot more passengers, especially if they're stuck on a train between stations. I still can't help but think this is being disproportionate. I appreciate that I am not on the "front line". We have station staff, DLR captains etc all in the supposed line of fire. I can't comprehend that drivers are more vulnerable. Can we deal with facts? How many times on a non-ATO line has a driver been assaulted to such an extent that the assistance had to go to the driver? Perhaps this is further weight being the argument that all lines should be ATO? |
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class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,744
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Post by class411 on Sept 23, 2018 9:20:27 GMT
When I was training as a station assistant (not CSA) we were instructed that if we feel threatened we should go somewhere with a door that could be secured which in most cases that would be the station control room. On train the only place we have is the cab which as has been demonstrated cannot be secured. If a member of station staff is assaulted they will be sent home or to hospital as necessary. If a train driver is assaulted on an ATO line the train will carry on until the next station (providing the emergency brake wasn't tripped during the assault) and they can then be sent home or to hospital but if the driver is assaulted on a non-ATO line the train stops where it is, any assistance will have to go to the train (and driver) which obviously is going to take a lot longer. On the operational side of things if a member of station staff is unable to continue working the station possibly would have to close until replacement staff arrive which would be inconvenient for passengers who want to use that station but usually there are alternative routes available. If a driver is unable to continue working the train stays where it is until a replacement driver can arrive and the line part suspended which is going to inconvenience a lot more passengers, especially if they're stuck on a train between stations. I still can't help but think this is being disproportionate. I appreciate that I am not on the "front line". We have station staff, DLR captains etc all in the supposed line of fire. I can't comprehend that drivers are more vulnerable. If someone is blocking the cab door there is nowhere the driver could reasonably go. Whereas the staff you mention could all retreat to safety. Well yes, of course, spend a few hundred million on converting all lines to ATO, rather than a few hundred thousand converting the door locks. Makes sense to me. |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 23, 2018 9:29:58 GMT
The long term aim is for all lines to be ATO anyway. However, thst isn’t going to happen for around 15 years or so.
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Post by drainrat on Sept 23, 2018 10:50:29 GMT
Not to mention there is a marked difference between ATO and NOPO (No person operation), which is often confused by the public as the media uses it as a way to undermine any driver actions, same as the case here, which is, "If you take action, they'll just get rid of you!".......well, no, no they won't, unfortunately more and more drivers actually believe what the press tells them, rather than listening to people 'who know' in the industry. The underground is over 150 yrs old, it's struggling to stay on top of bare maintenance as it is, deep tube isn't capable of NOPO, I'd say neither is Sub Surface either, it's not just a case of 'change the trains with no drivers cab' which is what the press usually rolls out cue any mention of action, it's the infrastructure needed to support it, which just can't be funded at the moment, and less likely to be post-brexit, and the political will has never really been there, it's an American mindset to make people redundant en masse and not really care about it too much "Bidness is bidness!" but something that hasn't really sat well with Brits, though our society now has fast become very much americanised, 'Snake oil' salesmen et al.
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Post by brigham on Sept 24, 2018 8:54:25 GMT
I've never understood why vast sums of money are spent on ever-more-complicated technology just to keep people out of work.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 15, 2018 6:57:42 GMT
A further meeting between ASLEF and Management is planned for 23 October although ASLEF have already advised Members that the next action will be 00.01-23.59 on Friday 7 December.
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Post by brigham on Oct 15, 2018 7:37:49 GMT
A further meeting between ASLEF and Management is planned for 23 October although ASLEF have already advised Members that the next action will be 00.01-23.59 on Friday 7 December. What will this one be over? |
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Post by greggygreggygreg on Oct 15, 2018 7:59:16 GMT
Not to mention there is a marked difference between ATO and NOPO (No person operation), which is often confused by the public as the media uses it as a way to undermine any driver actions, same as the case here, which is, "If you take action, they'll just get rid of you!".......well, no, no they won't, unfortunately more and more drivers actually believe what the press tells them, rather than listening to people 'who know' in the industry. The underground is over 150 yrs old, it's struggling to stay on top of bare maintenance as it is, deep tube isn't capable of NOPO, I'd say neither is Sub Surface either, it's not just a case of 'change the trains with no drivers cab' which is what the press usually rolls out cue any mention of action, it's the infrastructure needed to support it, which just can't be funded at the moment, and less likely to be post-brexit, and the political will has never really been there, it's an American mindset to make people redundant en masse and not really care about it too much "Bidness is bidness!" but something that hasn't really sat well with Brits, though our society now has fast become very much americanised, 'Snake oil' salesmen et al. Have a look at the new Glasgow Subway trains. They've been designed to have their cabs removed in the future. |
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Post by trt on Oct 15, 2018 9:02:09 GMT
Not to mention there is a marked difference between ATO and NOPO (No person operation), which is often confused by the public as the media uses it as a way to undermine any driver actions, same as the case here, which is, "If you take action, they'll just get rid of you!".......well, no, no they won't, unfortunately more and more drivers actually believe what the press tells them, rather than listening to people 'who know' in the industry. The underground is over 150 yrs old, it's struggling to stay on top of bare maintenance as it is, deep tube isn't capable of NOPO, I'd say neither is Sub Surface either, it's not just a case of 'change the trains with no drivers cab' which is what the press usually rolls out cue any mention of action, it's the infrastructure needed to support it, which just can't be funded at the moment, and less likely to be post-brexit, and the political will has never really been there, it's an American mindset to make people redundant en masse and not really care about it too much "Bidness is bidness!" but something that hasn't really sat well with Brits, though our society now has fast become very much americanised, 'Snake oil' salesmen et al. Don't worry. Journalists and newspaper editors will be replaced by AI soon. |
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Oct 15, 2018 9:47:02 GMT
A further meeting between ASLEF and Management is planned for 23 October although ASLEF have already advised Members that the next action will be 00.01-23.59 on Friday 7 December. What will this one be over? There are two separate disputes. The J door security and the breakdown in industrial relations. However, the action will be combined. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 15, 2018 11:16:25 GMT
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