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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 20, 2018 17:06:53 GMT
We've just been told that station staff will be withdrawn from Waterloo arrivals platform and that drivers will be left to close the doors except rather than going back to check that the cars are empty of passengers management want us to do a PA then close the doors from the cab.
They did this before on the Bakerloo Line at Queens Park in 2012 which led to numerous carry overs into the sidings, the drivers then insisted on going back to check and close the doors manually which led to serious delays to the service. Eventually management caved in and restored the platform staff.
They also proposed it for the Central Line when they introduced WTT 67 in 2013 but it was eventually shelved after opposition from the unions.
Both unions have said they will advise drivers to go back and close the doors on the porter buttons
Management never learn... |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Jul 20, 2018 19:20:15 GMT
Dear LU management,  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 10:54:10 GMT
I find it funny that its not worked well before on another line and they are still doing it again. 'incompetence' is often a word I see when angry commuters are bashing a TOCs (train operating company's) social media team for delays and I often think it's misused however, I honestly think this is perhaps leaning to incompetence. Management isn't learning, they're not listening and wait for things to get worse before they go back and those 'things' could easily be avoided if they just listen.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 21, 2018 11:24:02 GMT
Its not so much incompetence, more a complete lack of imagination. They want to cut costs and the easiest cuts to make are to station staff, they keep falling back on the same idea because they can't think of anything else, maybe if they keep trying it will work one day. Obviously they're far more intelligent than train drivers because they are paid so much more than us.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 21, 2018 11:34:25 GMT
I find it funny that its not worked well before on another line and they are still doing it again. 'incompetence' is often a word I see when angry commuters are bashing a TOCs (train operating company's) social media team for delays and I often think it's misused however, I honestly think this is perhaps leaning to incompetence. Management isn't learning, they're not listening and wait for things to get worse before they go back and those 'things' could easily be avoided if they just listen. And with the tight headway on the line, it could cause delays to the service. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jul 21, 2018 11:53:55 GMT
I find it funny that its not worked well before on another line and they are still doing it again. 'incompetence' is often a word I see when angry commuters are bashing a TOCs (train operating company's) social media team for delays and I often think it's misused however, I honestly think this is perhaps leaning to incompetence. Management isn't learning, they're not listening and wait for things to get worse before they go back and those 'things' could easily be avoided if they just listen. Sadly this is the typical LU management revolving door which goes round and round. It’s like the trains management. DCM, then forward to DMT, then back to DTSM, then forward to TM - all in a relatively small number of years. No wonder cynicism flourishes in LU. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 21, 2018 13:33:46 GMT
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 21, 2018 17:08:52 GMT
I find it funny that its not worked well before on another line and they are still doing it again. 'incompetence' is often a word I see when angry commuters are bashing a TOCs (train operating company's) social media team for delays and I often think it's misused however, I honestly think this is perhaps leaning to incompetence. Management isn't learning, they're not listening and wait for things to get worse before they go back and those 'things' could easily be avoided if they just listen. And with the tight headway on the line, it could cause delays to the service. I don't think there is much "could" about it - "will" is likely more accurate. |
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Post by dm1 on Jul 21, 2018 18:57:59 GMT
At risk of provoking ire - what is the big issue with over-carrying passengers?
As I understand it, trains don't tend to wait in the sidings for very long in any case (stepping back etc)?
If passengers do end up being over-carried, as long as it's made clear that they'll soon be taken back (for example by the driver when walking back through) to prevent panic, it shouldn't cause that many issues surely?
I've never quite understood the convention in recent years of avoiding reversing sidings because of this requirement (to check for passengers before using them). Many other countries transport systems seem to avoid this?
Am I missing something?
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Post by superteacher on Jul 21, 2018 19:33:48 GMT
At risk of provoking ire - what is the big issue with over-carrying passengers? As I understand it, trains don't tend to wait in the sidings for very long in any case (stepping back etc)? If passengers do end up being over-carried, as long as it's made clear that they'll soon be taken back (for example by the driver when walking back through) to prevent panic, it shouldn't cause that many issues surely? I've never quite understood the convention in recent years of avoiding reversing sidings because of this requirement (to check for passengers before using them). Many other countries transport systems seem to avoid this? Am I missing something? There is still the potential ro encounter an aggressive passenger on the train. You can explain to them as much you like, some people are beyond rationalitty! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 19:42:50 GMT
At risk of provoking ire - what is the big issue with over-carrying passengers? As I understand it, trains don't tend to wait in the sidings for very long in any case (stepping back etc)? If passengers do end up being over-carried, as long as it's made clear that they'll soon be taken back (for example by the driver when walking back through) to prevent panic, it shouldn't cause that many issues surely? I've never quite understood the convention in recent years of avoiding reversing sidings because of this requirement (to check for passengers before using them). Many other countries transport systems seem to avoid this? Am I missing something?
Well there are a few things to bear in mind.
Passengers do not belong in depots, they are potentially dangerous environments.
Passengers do not want to be in depots/sidings, they want to be where they want to be.
Trains aren't meant to wait in the sidings/depots for very long, but if there is a problem you might want to leave the train where it is for a few hours.
It shouldn't cause that many issues if the person is a nice, reasonable person. But if the person is an angry impatient drunk and it's not a depot but a siding, you don't wanna be stuck on a train with that person and no way out. We have had reports on these boards of assaults in the Kennington reversing loop if my memory serves.
There have been incidents. A gentleman attempting to alight from a train at Liverpool Street reported slipped between the cars and fell to his death. At Queen's Park when this innovation was attempted on the Bakerloo a young kid remained on the train into Queen's Park North Sheds, slipped between the cars and headed off up the track to retrieve something.
At Waterloo, for example, the moves in and out are controlled by shunt signals. Passengers are not meant to be knowingly carried over shunt moves without authorisation as these moves are not signalled to the same standards of safety. Additional safety mechanisms required for main aspects to clear may be omitted in the case of shunt signals.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 21, 2018 23:49:52 GMT
At risk of provoking ire - what is the big issue with over-carrying passengers? As I understand it, trains don't tend to wait in the sidings for very long in any case (stepping back etc)? If passengers do end up being over-carried, as long as it's made clear that they'll soon be taken back (for example by the driver when walking back through) to prevent panic, it shouldn't cause that many issues surely? I've never quite understood the convention in recent years of avoiding reversing sidings because of this requirement (to check for passengers before using them). Many other countries transport systems seem to avoid this? Am I missing something? The signals into and out of Waterloo depot are shunt signals, the basic rule is that shunt moves are made without passengers. Under Operational Standards Notice No. 101, brought in 2011 ahead of the Olympics, if a train driver carries passengers into a siding or depot they then have to get authority from the line controller to carry the passengers back over a shunt signal. The problem is that at Waterloo its quite possible for a driver to bring passengers into the depot and for another driver to take them out again without knowing they are there, without asking the line controller for permission. Technically that could lead to the driver being dismissed for failing to follow procedure. In the past drivers have been sacked for over-carrying passengers into depots and sidings, we're not going to put our jobs on the line because management want to save a few thousand quid. Plus there is the "mad Derek" scenario where we take a drunk into the depot and they get violent. |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 22, 2018 8:10:10 GMT
At risk of provoking ire - what is the big issue with over-carrying passengers? As I understand it, trains don't tend to wait in the sidings for very long in any case (stepping back etc)? If passengers do end up being over-carried, as long as it's made clear that they'll soon be taken back (for example by the driver when walking back through) to prevent panic, it shouldn't cause that many issues surely? I've never quite understood the convention in recent years of avoiding reversing sidings because of this requirement (to check for passengers before using them). Many other countries transport systems seem to avoid this? Am I missing something? The signals into and out of Waterloo depot are shunt signals, the basic rule is that shunt moves are made without passengers. Under Operational Standards Notice No. 101, brought in 2011 ahead of the Olympics, if a train driver carries passengers into a siding or depot they then have to ask permission from the line controller to carry a passenger back over a shunt signal. The problem is that at Waterloo its quite possible for a driver to bring passengers into the depot and for another driver to take them out again without knowing they are there, without asking the line controller for permission. Technically that could lead to the driver being dismissed for failing to follow the rules. In the past drivers have been sacked for over-carrying passengers into depots and sidings, we're not going to put our jobs on the line because management want to save a few thousand quid. Plus there is the "mad Derek" scenario where we take a drunk into the depot and they get violent. Mad Derek! 😂😂😂😂😂 |
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Post by dmncf on Jul 22, 2018 9:43:43 GMT
And with the tight headway on the line, it could cause delays to the service. Is part of the management's rationale that this proposal to cease checking the train and using porter buttons could allow the train to clear the platform more quickly and hence increase train frequency? |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 22, 2018 11:18:28 GMT
And with the tight headway on the line, it could cause delays to the service. Is part of the management's rationale that this proposal to cease checking the train and using porter buttons could allow the train to clear the platform more quickly and hence increase train frequency? If staff are closing with the porter buttons they can close the doors the moment the last passenger gets off. If the driver is closing the doors from the cab they'll be watching on the CCTV and after people stop getting off they will have to make a PA announcement before closing the doors so it will probably slow down the process. |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 22, 2018 11:22:38 GMT
It’s really annoying because management must have known that the unions would object to this, yet they still proposed it!
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Post by Chris M on Jul 22, 2018 12:31:47 GMT
Unless it has been proposed so the unions object and someone high up can blame them for the project not working rather than having to admit it was a stupid idea. Or is that too cynical?
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Post by superteacher on Jul 22, 2018 13:02:45 GMT
Unless it has been proposed so the unions object and someone high up can blame them for the project not working rather than having to admit it was a stupid idea. Or is that too cynical? I wouldn’t put it past them Chris! |
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Post by davethewomble on Jul 23, 2018 9:35:13 GMT
I'm wondering what the service indicator will say that the Severe delays on the drain are due to.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 23, 2018 11:00:47 GMT
"Staff absence", they used that when the stations staff had an overtime ban
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Jul 23, 2018 14:27:19 GMT
Actually, I've started hearing that excuse quite a bit recently...
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 23, 2018 16:28:05 GMT
Rulebook 8 Managing the Platform Train Interface
Section 3.3 Detrainments
When a train is terminating or is to be detrained:-
You must visually check all customers have got off the train and close the doors using the porter’s buttons.
Nothing about flashing the saloon lights or making three PAs before closing from the cab.
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Post by dmncf on Jul 23, 2018 17:45:36 GMT
Does or did the Bakerloo line have detrainment at Harrow & Wealdstone without the assistance of station staff? Or am I misremembering that I've seen this here?
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 23, 2018 18:31:23 GMT
We've just been told that station staff will be withdrawn from Waterloo arrivals platform and that drivers will be left to close the doors except rather than going back to check that the cars are empty of passengers management want us to do a PA then close the doors from the cab.
They did this before on the Bakerloo Line at Queens Park in 2012 which led to numerous carry overs into the sidings, the drivers then insisted on going back to check and close the doors manually which led to serious delays to the service. Eventually management caved in and restored the platform staff.
They also proposed it for the Central Line when they introduced WTT 67 in 2013 but it was eventually shelved after opposition from the unions.
Both unions have said they will advise drivers to go back and close the doors on the porter buttons
Management never learn... Of course most passengers will know that this is a two station shuttle and be so keen to catch their onward train that they would be out of the train even before the doors had opened - if they could!
Then there will be transport enthusiasts, keen on some 'rare track'. Just like at Kennington.
'nuff said.
Simon
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 23, 2018 19:13:26 GMT
Does or did the Bakerloo line have detrainment at Harrow & Wealdstone without the assistance of station staff? Or am I misremembering that I've seen this here? I use this station on a fairly regular basis and there is usually a member of staff who checks the length of the train without the porter's buttons and gives verbal confirmation to close the doors to the driver. |
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Post by 35b on Jul 23, 2018 19:50:14 GMT
Rulebook 8 Managing the Platform Train Interface Section 3.3 Detrainments When a train is terminating or is to be detrained:- You must visually check all customers have got off the train and close the doors using the porter’s buttons. Nothing about flashing the saloon lights or making three PAs before closing from the cab. Does this apply at Kennington? |
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Post by John Tuthill on Jul 23, 2018 19:53:35 GMT
Rulebook 8 Managing the Platform Train Interface Section 3.3 Detrainments When a train is terminating or is to be detrained:- You must visually check all customers have got off the train and close the doors using the porter’s buttons. Nothing about flashing the saloon lights or making three PAs before closing from the cab. Does this apply at Kennington? I remember it being done when the 38s were running |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 23, 2018 20:39:17 GMT
Does this apply at Kennington? I remember it being done when the 38s were running 38 stock didn’t have a PA system, unless you count a shouting guard as one! |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 23, 2018 21:09:01 GMT
Rulebook 8 Managing the Platform Train Interface Section 3.3 Detrainments When a train is terminating or is to be detrained:- You must visually check all customers have got off the train and close the doors using the porter’s buttons. Nothing about flashing the saloon lights or making three PAs before closing from the cab. Does this apply at Kennington? the Rulebooks apply to the whole of London Underground unless there is a specific exception for Kennington in the Northern Line supplement or anywhere else. We've just been told that station staff will be withdrawn from Waterloo arrivals platform and that drivers will be left to close the doors except rather than going back to check that the cars are empty of passengers management want us to do a PA then close the doors from the cab.
They did this before on the Bakerloo Line at Queens Park in 2012 which led to numerous carry overs into the sidings, the drivers then insisted on going back to check and close the doors manually which led to serious delays to the service. Eventually management caved in and restored the platform staff.
They also proposed it for the Central Line when they introduced WTT 67 in 2013 but it was eventually shelved after opposition from the unions.
Both unions have said they will advise drivers to go back and close the doors on the porter buttons
Management never learn... Of course most passengers will know that this is a two station shuttle and be so keen to catch their onward train that they would be out of the train even before the doors had opened - if they could! Then there will be transport enthusiasts, keen on some 'rare track'. Just like at Kennington. 'nuff said. Simon
That is irrelevant, if a passenger is carried over into a depot or sidings its the driver's responsibility and they can be held responsible. People have been sacked in the past for carry overs. Does or did the Bakerloo line have detrainment at Harrow & Wealdstone without the assistance of station staff? Or am I misremembering that I've seen this here? I use this station on a fairly regular basis and there is usually a member of staff who checks the length of the train without the porter's buttons and gives verbal confirmation to close the doors to the driver. Again, unless there is a specific exemption in the Bakerloo Line Supplement then this goes against the Rulebook and if there were a carry over the driver could face disciplinary action. <<superteacher: Posts merged.>>
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 23, 2018 21:26:31 GMT
Rulebook 8 Managing the Platform Train Interface Section 3.3 Detrainments When a train is terminating or is to be detrained:- You must visually check all customers have got off the train and close the doors using the porter’s buttons. Nothing about flashing the saloon lights or making three PAs before closing from the cab. Does this apply at Kennington? I suspect that will depend on how you define "terminating". Also, what about S Stock which are not fitted with porter buttons - but an alternate system? |
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