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Post by jetblast787 on May 30, 2018 13:18:23 GMT
I'm about to embark on writing a report and one question I have is when was the last freight service that operated on LU infrastructure? Freight being goods or mail, not engineering trains. A source will also be useful as I couldn't find anything!
Thanks
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 13:20:49 GMT
Probably the waste from Neasden power station to Croxley tip
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Post by superteacher on May 30, 2018 13:27:25 GMT
Think most of the goods yards had gone by the mid 60s.
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Post by rdm on Jun 15, 2018 14:27:23 GMT
I'm late onto this due to holidays, but IIRC, on the lines with which I am familar, the steam-hauled freight trains between Brent Sidings and West Ken/High Street via Acton Wells Jn, South Acton Jn, Bollo Lane Jn, Acton Lane Jn and Turnham Green last ran in 1965; I'm not sure when the freight (and early morning passenger) trains to/from the GE lines ran on the East end of the Central line via Leyton but I think it was roughly the same general period. Likewise the services on the northern side of the Circle between Acton Yard and Smithfield sidings via Paddington Suburban and Edgware Road. Hope this helps!
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Post by stapler on Jun 15, 2018 16:42:16 GMT
The last use of the Leyton Station Junction - Loughton Branch Junction line was in 1970, for early morning DMUs, but I believe the last goods trains ran 18.4.1966. Certainly the track in the yards (Ongar, Loughton etc) that retained it was rusty and o-o-u in 1967. The BR manager that closed this freight operation was one Ron Gow, later a respected local councillor in Epping Forest....
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 15, 2018 19:34:41 GMT
In addition to the Central Line route to Ongar / Newbury Park via Woodford another former LNER route which was also served by goods trains was the route from Finsbury Park to Edgware / High Barnet / Alexandra Palace via Highgate High Level. I am not sure but suspect that goods trains ceased on these services in the mid 1960's.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Jun 18, 2018 14:19:56 GMT
There was also freight services on the Met Main. They had all finished by the time I worked on the Met in June 1973.
There was also a daily trip from Lillie Bridge to Olympia BR until the end of steam on Lt to take coal empties and collect loaded coal wagons. This was operated by one of the LT pannier tanks. They finished in 1971.
Wasn't there also BR freight from the link at Ilford to Newbury Park to serve Hainault and other goods yards on the loop? I remember seeing Brush type 2s in the loop goods yards while bunking off school!
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Post by stapler on Jun 18, 2018 15:11:04 GMT
Roy, I think the link from Newbury Park to Ilford was removed on electrification. That from Seven Kings was taken out after 1956. Freight on the Loop survived another 10 years, but the trains were worked from Woodford Junction; a run-round stub was kept south of Newbury Park, and like you, I can remember a N7 simmering there.
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Post by naz on Jun 18, 2018 16:20:34 GMT
I have seen very few photos of freight trains on the central perhaps because most ran at night although a former train driver I once knew based at Stratford said coal trains sometimes ran during the day hauled by class 15 or 16 locos which he drove he said they did give him any trouble despite the problems they had with them. But it still would nice to see some photos during shunting operations but I suspect they would have surfaced by now.
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Post by revupminster on Jun 18, 2018 16:52:09 GMT
The East London Line also had freight trains into the early 60's in the evening. As a boy (13 or 14) I was in the foreman's office under the stairs with my father and they shook the whole station when they went through. Wikipedia mentions they were short freight trains as the had to shunt via the Liverpool Street platforms.
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Post by littlejohn on Jun 18, 2018 17:45:42 GMT
I recall in the 1950s that there was a number of coal merchants (one was called Cades Coals) scattered along the the line between Rayners Lane and Ruislip, with coal staves fronting onto the running line. These later became station car parks. The non-electrified siding at Rayners Lane was certainly in situ between the down line and the car park a few years ago - is it still there? I always imagined that the coal was delivered by rail; does anyone have any definitive information?
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Post by t697 on Jun 18, 2018 18:38:30 GMT
This thread in DD, districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/5509/rayners-lane-sidings, suggests closure in 1964 but might mean the coal yard rather than deliveries by train. I have a vague recollection that deliveries to the yard were by road by then for a while after rail deliveries finished. Aha, Wikipedia entry for "Rayners Lane tube station" lists the goods yard as closing 10 August 1964, with a reference to; Hardy, Brian, ed. (March 2011). "How it used to be – freight on The Underground 50 years ago". Underground News. London Underground Railway Society (591): 175–183. ISSN 0306-8617. The coal yard probably closed as the relentless advance of central heating installations into the local housing took away the market.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 18, 2018 20:08:14 GMT
I think the link from Newbury Park to Ilford was removed on electrification. I understand that Ilford emu depot is built across the trackbed.
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Post by stapler on Jun 18, 2018 20:58:36 GMT
t697...No relentless advance of central heating in 1964. That didn't really come till the late 70s, after natural gas arrived. What did come in the 60s were electric storage heaters and fitted gas fires, both of which were permissible under the smokeless zones established piecemeal after the Clean Air Act of 1956. Also paraffin heaters were extremely common in the early 60s, and yes, I do remember the Esso Blue jingle.
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Post by stapler on Jun 18, 2018 21:07:52 GMT
I think the link from Newbury Park to Ilford was removed on electrification. I understand that Ilford emu depot is built across the trackbed. <iframe width="23.160000000000082" height="5" style="position: absolute; width: 23.160000000000082px; height: 5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_77638630" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.160000000000082" height="5" style="position: absolute; width: 23.16px; height: 5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1098px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_64722903" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.160000000000082" height="5" style="position: absolute; width: 23.16px; height: 5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 189px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_89959228" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.160000000000082" height="5" style="position: absolute; width: 23.16px; height: 5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1098px; top: 189px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_42085633" scrolling="no"></iframe> That is quite true. The old Ilford MPD and various allotments and sidings were taken for the London end sheds, but the coup de grace was the large "carriage repair shed" built at the country end after 1956, hard up to the houses in Aldborough Rd. The junction for the Seven Kings Curve was approx 50 yards on the London side of that bridge, just by where the water tower is now
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 18, 2018 21:26:52 GMT
t697...No relentless advance of central heating in 1964. That didn't really come till the late 70s, after natural gas arrived. What did come in the 60s were electric storage heaters and fitted gas fires, both of which were permissible under the smokeless zones established piecemeal after the Clean Air Act of 1956. Also paraffin heaters were extremely common in the early 60s, and yes, I do remember the Esso Blue jingle. And they had Esso Pink as well, if memory recalls correctly. Esso stink might have been more applicable if the nasal memory is as accurate, though! Back on subject, the 1971 mentioned earlier rings a bell as the last freight run on LT metals, as does Lillie Bridge. Only query I'd have is whether 1971 was the Central Area's last freight & not the whole Tube network, reason being I read it some while ago & can't remember where now.
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Post by brigham on Jun 19, 2018 8:43:04 GMT
Aladdin Pink Paraffin was the best-known alternative to Esso Blue. Regent Green was less well-known.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Jun 19, 2018 14:11:56 GMT
Coal trains ran through Richmond from BR metals to the District, then through to a special holding route via the Picc platform at Turnham Green on to the District again to Lillie Bridge well into the '60s
Although these were steam hauled from the Southern, (poss. from Feltham), they were always pulled by a BR Midland Region engine
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Post by rdm on Jun 19, 2018 19:22:31 GMT
Coal trains ran through Richmond from BR metals to the District, then through to a special holding route via the Picc platform at Turnham Green on to the District again to Lillie Bridge well into the '60s Although these were steam hauled from the Southern, (poss. from Feltham), they were always pulled by a BR Midland Region engine I'm afraid I beg to differ here - I am familiar with these trains and as I posted earlier, they ran from Brent (LMR) to either West Ken or High Street goods yards via Acton Lane Jn, Picc at Turnham Green to holding loop between Picc and DR thence to the depots. The interesting thing so far as the 1950s an 60s are concerned was that Gunnersbury and Acton Lane boxes, although LSWR boxes and still worked by SR signalmen, never saw revenue earning non-passenger trains, only the occasional engineer's train (which did come from Richmond direction). Come to that, Gunnersbury and Bollo Lane Jn only saw DR or LMR (North London Line) trains so far as passenger workings were concerned. These coal trains last ran in mid-1965, and as per District Line WTT No 84, from 12th June 1961, they were booked as follows:- UP 4.40am (MO) Brent to West Ken (Acton Lane pass 5.10am) Runs as required. 5.0am (MX) Brent to West Ken (Acton Lane pass 5.23am) Runs as required. 8.45am Brent to High Street (Acton Lane pass 9.30am). 9.45am Brent to West Ken (Acton Lane pass 10.19am). 10.40am Brent to West Ken (Acton Lane pass 11.18am) Runs as required. 12.25pm Brent to High Street (Acton Lane pass 1.3pm) Runs as required. DOWN 10.29am West Ken to Brent (Acton Lane pass 10.38am) Runs as required. 12.13pm West Ken to Brent (Acton Lane pass 12.22pm) Runs as required. 2.23pm High Street to Brent (Acton Lane pass 2.36pm). 3.58pm West Ken to Brent (Acton Lane pass 4.6pm). (Edited to shew booked timings).
(the first on shews a Down freight train and the second a westbound DR train with the Eastbound DR Home signal in the background).
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Post by littlejohn on Jun 19, 2018 20:16:09 GMT
t697 - thanks!
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Post by t697 on Jun 19, 2018 20:35:29 GMT
t697...No relentless advance of central heating in 1964. That didn't really come till the late 70s, after natural gas arrived. What did come in the 60s were electric storage heaters and fitted gas fires, both of which were permissible under the smokeless zones established piecemeal after the Clean Air Act of 1956. Also paraffin heaters were extremely common in the early 60s, and yes, I do remember the Esso Blue jingle. Oil fired central heating made good progress though, until the oil crisis in the 70's. Big tank outside your back door and oil deliveries a few times a year. There was a distribution depot in Garston I think that covered the Rayners Lane area.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 1,316
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Post by castlebar on Jun 19, 2018 20:51:01 GMT
Sorry rdm but we'll have to agree to disagree
In the late 50s and 60s, the connections at Richmond were different. BR Trains came off BR metals from the Twickenham direction and ran straight though to Turnham Green
The N to E chord north of Gunnersbury was well rusted and unused, not even for a weekly service
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 19, 2018 21:39:11 GMT
In the late 50s and 60s, ………………...The N to E chord north of Gunnersbury was well rusted and unused, not even for a weekly service This source says the curve closed in 1965.
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Post by rdm on Jun 19, 2018 22:26:33 GMT
Sorry rdm but we'll have to agree to disagree In the late 50s and 60s, the connections at Richmond were different. BR Trains came off BR metals from the Twickenham direction and ran straight though to Turnham Green The N to E chord north of Gunnersbury was well rusted and unused, not even for a weekly service Castlebar - I have personal knowledge of the workings of these LMR goods trains from July 1960 until March 1962 and I can assure you that the 'Midland Curve' between Acton Lane and Bollo Lane Jns and the Coal Line between Acton Lane Jn and Turnham Green (Picc line) was used almost daily except Sundays by one and sometimes two goods trains in each direction as per the timetable extract I quoted above. During these dates there was no reference in the WTT to any goods trains between Richmond and Turnham Green and apart from the very rare engineer's train for overnight work on the Gunnersbury triangle there were NO trains ex the SR Main lines at Richmond to Acton Lane Jn and even these engineer's trains never went forward to Turnham Green. I would hazard a guess that the last 'Main Line' through trains of any sort between Richmond and Turnham Green would have been before WW1 when the LSWR Kensington and Richmond services operated. The former layout between Turnham Green and just East of Ravenscourt Park (Northern pair for LSWR and Southern pair for the District) was completely re-arranged in the early 1930s for the 1932 extension of the Picc west from Hammersmith. In all the time that I knew the service I never saw the 'From Gunnersbury to Turnham Green (Coal Line)' home signal (shewn in one of the Bluebell pictures in my earlier post) operated.
The history of this whole area is fascinating and would be worthy of a new thread, which I may start when I have the time to put something together. I would be very interested in any evidence you have of such through workings in the 'late 50s/60s' as quoted by you, such as WTT times or photographs, as this would fill a gap in my knowledge of the area. Thanks.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Jun 20, 2018 6:11:38 GMT
I'm afraid I am working on my personal memory
I remember the double junction at Richmond was quite well used.
Even in the 50s, the Gunnersbury North chord was well rusted and looked as if it hadn't been used for years
But memory is all that I have, neither photographs nor documentation
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 20, 2018 7:28:28 GMT
The last use of the Leyton Station Junction - Loughton Branch Junction line was in 1970, for early morning DMUs... Fairly recently, someone dug up a picture of a blue-liveried DMU at Loughton. The "BR blue" era started c1968. This thread has the dmus running until May 1970 As for Acton curve, the photo of an LMS loco on the curve upthread is dated 1956, and the track looks in good nick there - more than can be said for the loco! The double track connection at Richmond was removed when the area was resignalled in 1972. The later shunt connection at Richmond was regularly used for stock transfers during the late 1980s when SR 2EPBs worked the North London Line.
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Post by stapler on Jun 20, 2018 13:47:38 GMT
Quite correct, NF; passenger use by mainline stock to Loughton outlasted goods
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Post by grahamhewett on Jun 20, 2018 14:23:21 GMT
t697 - there is an LURS article about freight over LU metals, referenced on a thread here that may have been closed about three/four years ago, when I made a not dissimilar query to yours, about freight to S Harrow gasworks and to Uxbridge I seem to recall, they were all worked as one trip; last seen by me around 1964 when I had the pleasure of watching a really filthy Cricklewood 76xxx attempt to push 2 loaded wagons up the incline into Eastcote yard - required 3 attempts.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Jun 21, 2018 7:52:47 GMT
Thanks for clearing that up as to the closure of the Ilford-Newbury Park line. I'd been working at Newbury Park for a few weekends this year and seeing the trackbed disappearing under the A12 made me wonder. It was the Clean Air Act that saw the rapid demise of coal fires in London, not central heating. nobody could afford it in those days. And thinking back to the Esso Blue jingle, the joke was "what has four bums and keeps you warm? Bum bum bum bum, Esso blue". Only those from that age will appreciate the joke.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Jun 21, 2018 8:05:16 GMT
Re the Gunnersbury Triangle, it was certainly used until 1965; if I remember correctly, the track wasn't removed until the early 1970s. I too don't recall any workings from Richmond BR to Turnham Green. there was/is a weight limit on the river bridge at Kew; the use of locomotives was severely restricted. In my days as a driver at Waterloo the heaviest allowed a cross there was a class 33.
Having worked with a number of ex Feltham men at Waterloo, none of them ever mentioned working onto the District; plenty of memories od going to Brent, Willesden, Stratford and Hither Green, but never the DR. Coal came from the North and Brent was the main London sorting sidings for coal traffic. Hence the Midland engines working on the DR from Turnham Green to West Ken and High Street.
Anyway, no Southern locos that I know of were fitted with trip cocks. A number of Cricklewood Jintys were, as were Stratford and Hornsey locos for working on the Northern and Central branches and the Widened Lines.
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