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Post by ducatisti on Dec 6, 2018 12:36:34 GMT
Saw one in Hornsey Depot this am - until now they seem to have been sitting in the sidings across the way. What was quite interesting was the destination display on the side said King's Lynn... that would be a bit of an extension for Moorgate services. JOOI, does anyone know why they didn't put the yellow front on them (seeing as the mainline ones have the same marker lights and have kept the yellow). The class 717 use the same database as the 700s to keep things simple (as its GTR's not Siemens). The reason the 700s have the yellow is the rule requiring that was in force when they were designed. The 717s are designed afterwards. Thank you for the clear and helpful answers. Fascinating re the design, I assumed they were developed simultaneously. |
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Post by superteacher on Dec 6, 2018 13:27:16 GMT
Any update on their regular entry to service?
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Post by fleetline on Dec 6, 2018 14:37:49 GMT
The class 717 use the same database as the 700s to keep things simple (as its GTR's not Siemens). The reason the 700s have the yellow is the rule requiring that was in force when they were designed. The 717s are designed afterwards. Thank you for the clear and helpful answers. Fascinating re the design, I assumed they were developed simultaneously. For the most part the 700/707/717 are the same train, however the 717 cab is very different layout due to the emergency stairway. Having been in the 700 and 717 cabs the basic functions are all laid out in a similar place but with a middle 'cover' the then stairs which results in a vastly different cab. 700 can is great for drivers but 717 can not so. But not any choice with that. Any update on their regular entry to service? Last I hear off a reliable source was new year. Currently all efforts are being redirected to ensure December works first. There no 717 diagrams for xmas week anyway so makes sense to push them back to January as it's not needed but proper resourced Decemeber is. <<superteacher: Posts merged.>>
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 1, 2019 16:57:40 GMT
Obviously Siemens have broken the back of the issues with the 700s as you would hope and the 707s and 717s seem to have had a smoother early life. The 717s were supposed to have been in service by September last year, so not that smooth. And the irony is that the type with the smoothest entry into service (class 707) may well be out of service by the end of the year. (Unless the 701s that are to replace them suffer the same problems as their class 710 cousins). |
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Post by jukes on Jan 2, 2019 13:45:53 GMT
Obviously Siemens have broken the back of the issues with the 700s as you would hope and the 707s and 717s seem to have had a smoother early life. The 717s were supposed to have been in service by September last year, so not that smooth. And the irony is that the type with the smoothest entry into service (class 707) may well be out of service by the end of the year. (Unless the 701s that are to replace them suffer the same problems as their class 710 cousins). The 717s were never slated to be service in September 2018. It was always advertised as gradual introduction from LATE Autumn 2018 (always meaning December 9 timetable change) up to early Spring 2019 (meaning mid-March). At least 20 of the 25 units had been delivered before Christmas and are undergoing rigorous testing and driver route and traction training. The remaining 5 units will have been delivered by February. A limited public introductory service has been running on some Friday afternoons since November with a service from Moorgate to Gordon Hill. The only thing that has changed is GTR decided to concentrate all its efforts on timetable stabilisation and enhancement work on the Class 700s and very sensibly decided to delay the additional introduction effort associated with the 717 rollout from December 9 into January or perhaps the start of February. By which time in probability the entire GN Metro service can be '717'nd' in one go! Having ridden a 717 under test and in public service I can promise they are good! |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 2, 2019 21:46:39 GMT
The 717s were never slated to be service in September 2018. It was always advertised as gradual introduction from LATE Autumn 2018 (always meaning December 9 timetable change) up to early Spring 2019 (meaning mid-March). At least 20 of the 25 units had been delivered before Christmas and are undergoing rigorous testing and driver route and traction training. The remaining 5 units will have been delivered by February. A limited public introductory service has been running on some Friday afternoons since November with a service from Moorgate to Gordon Hill. The only thing that has changed is GTR decided to concentrate all its efforts on timetable stabilisation and enhancement work on the Class 700s and very sensibly decided to delay the additional introduction effort associated with the 717 rollout from December 9 into January or perhaps the start of February. By which time in probability the entire GN Metro service can be '717'nd' in one go! Having ridden a 717 under test and in public service I can promise they are good! I have tried to ride them on several Fridays (both before and after the 9th Dec timetable change), but always without success. There have been two scenarios...
1) The trains run Moorgate - Finsbury Park as ecs and then non-stop to Gordon Hill in passenger service. However they did not stop at Finsbury Park and therefore it is impossible to board them! That to me is not 'in passenger service'.
2) Waiting at Moorgate station the service to Gordon Hill is shown as No.2 on the passenger information display but once the first train has left the station there is a service alteration and the Gordon Hill train is leap-frogged by another longer distance train operated by a 313. On one occasion I spent so long waiting for this specific train that I breached the journey time limit on my Oystercard*. In the end I approached a member of staff in the office who looked through his system and told me that he could not see that train anywhere so therefore it must have been cancelled. Fortunately to get back home I did not need to visit a ticket hall - instead I used one of the free-standing card readers which are deep underground and intended for passengers interchanging between LU and GN services with paper tickets that are only valid on the GN trains.
From what I can tell only once has a 717 actually carried real fare-paying passengers - and this was solely so that it could be stated (in writing, and quoting a date and time) that the first train has started carrying passengers.
*I was using my Visitors Oystercard (an early version without the white D in a blue box on its back) which now has a negative value of something like £6.50. I am minded to leave it in this condition 'forever' as I have viable alternative solutions and I received 'much hassle' trying to resolve the issue after failed card readers (somewhere else) caused this Oystercard to go into negative value a few months ago - of course if the GN 717 had run in passenger service as advertised then this scenario would not have come to pass.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 5, 2019 11:08:46 GMT
I have been looking for them on Real Time Trains (which shows 5xxx empty stock workings as well as class (1 and) 2 passenger workings, and on most Fridays no trains terminating or originating at Gordon Hill (2Gxx or 5Gxx) were to be seen.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 10, 2019 17:27:28 GMT
The penultimate unit of the class, 717024 is now on UK metals. Could it be possible that the whole fleet could swoop in on the May timetable change?
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Post by superteacher on Jan 10, 2019 18:13:08 GMT
The penultimate unit of the class, 717024 is now on UK metals. Could it be possible that the whole fleet could swoop in on the May timetable change? Unlikely since some issues don’t become apparent until the trains enter passenger service. What would happen if they all had to be taken out of service again? I think they will all be in service before May, but it’ll be a gradual rollout. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 11, 2019 13:24:47 GMT
The penultimate unit of the class, 717024 is now on UK metals. Could it be possible that the whole fleet could swoop in on the May timetable change? An informed comment on another forum suggests initial rostered workings may start in 10-17 days but that still has to be confirmed. The introduction will be phased not a big bang. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 11, 2019 23:27:36 GMT
The penultimate unit of the class, 717024 is now on UK metals. Could it be possible that the whole fleet could swoop in on the May timetable change? An informed comment on another forum suggests initial rostered workings may start in 10-17 days but that still has to be confirmed. The introduction will be phased not a big bang. I saw speculation that they start next Monday - 14th January! I am sceptical, because elsewhere I saw February, but in reality I suppose I should treat both as 'hearsay' until its officially denied.
The Class 345's sort of slipped in to service almost unannounced, maybe the same will happen with the 717's?
Simon
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Post by snoggle on Jan 12, 2019 17:17:17 GMT
An informed comment on another forum suggests initial rostered workings may start in 10-17 days but that still has to be confirmed. The introduction will be phased not a big bang. I saw speculation that they start next Monday - 14th January! I am sceptical, because elsewhere I saw February, but in reality I suppose I should treat both as 'hearsay' until its officially denied. The Class 345's sort of slipped in to service almost unannounced, maybe the same will happen with the 717's? Simon
I simply shared what someone posted in good faith elsewhere. That person is only a driver on the relevant GN route so what would they know?   What you choose to believe is up to you. (note to self - don't bother in future) |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 12, 2019 17:57:04 GMT
Sorry, no insult intended.
The 'elsewhere' was not 'here'!
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Post by fleetline on Jan 13, 2019 15:20:32 GMT
The 717s were supposed to have been in service by September last year, so not that smooth. And the irony is that the type with the smoothest entry into service (class 707) may well be out of service by the end of the year. (Unless the 701s that are to replace them suffer the same problems as their class 710 cousins). The 717s were never slated to be service in September 2018. It was always advertised as gradual introduction from LATE Autumn 2018 (always meaning December 9 timetable change) up to early Spring 2019 (meaning mid-March). At least 20 of the 25 units had been delivered before Christmas and are undergoing rigorous testing and driver route and traction training. The remaining 5 units will have been delivered by February. A limited public introductory service has been running on some Friday afternoons since November with a service from Moorgate to Gordon Hill. The only thing that has changed is GTR decided to concentrate all its efforts on timetable stabilisation and enhancement work on the Class 700s and very sensibly decided to delay the additional introduction effort associated with the 717 rollout from December 9 into January or perhaps the start of February. By which time in probability the entire GN Metro service can be '717'nd' in one go! Having ridden a 717 under test and in public service I can promise they are good! Sorry but completely wrong. Siemens/GTR were contract to delivery the first passenger service in September and the first passenger service ran 28/09/18. Yes it was a preview service but it was a public accessible service. All preview services ended with the start of the December timetable change IIRC. As for introduction, there has never ever been a big bang plan. The plan is 3 diagrams introduced in phase 1. This is part of a slow run up. Big bang is a bad idea. There may be a single diagram introduced on the first day but expect a slow but steady fizzle in rather than fireworks. It also helps the 313s are required anywhere else so there is zero reason to rush this. Current plan is Monday 28th January (2019) but there a things that need signing off before then. Remember unions/ORR are all part of the puzzle and everyone must be satisfied prior to rolling them put in service. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 13, 2019 22:05:15 GMT
it might be an idea to keep an eye on the weather forecasts, earlier today I saw a long-range BBC weather forecast which hinted that we might have some snow by then. If we do it might affect the introduction of the train.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 22, 2019 0:06:02 GMT
Seems the preview service on the GN inners with class 717 has resumed 21.1.19. This is from two sources including a senior operating person who tweeted the info. Seems to be Moorgate to Gordon Hill. |
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Post by brooklynbound on Jan 22, 2019 9:57:23 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 22, 2019 18:04:56 GMT
I was there today too...
Video to come, hopefully this evening.
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Post by toby on Jan 23, 2019 15:47:48 GMT
Our roving/raving reporter Geoff was also there.
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 23, 2019 23:18:06 GMT
It took me a little longer than I had hoped... but here is my film on these trains.
Exploring one of the new Great Northern Class 717 trains during a ride between Moorgate and Gordon Hill stations on a 'preview' journey which was prior to these trains entering full daily service.
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Post by vinnielo on Jan 23, 2019 23:36:10 GMT
Nice to see the information displays working on your service! I was on the 1337 yesterday and the one there wasn't working or in use.
My video will be up shortly as well. I'm having difficulty getting Premiere to compile it on my 32-bit machine so trying it on a 64-bit machine now!
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Post by vinnielo on Jan 24, 2019 0:46:57 GMT
It's worked! Here's my contribution.
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Post by melikepie on Jan 24, 2019 1:44:06 GMT
I think that's the first time I've seen a fast train from Moorgate to Drayton Park of all places.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 24, 2019 7:53:31 GMT
I think that's the first time I've seen a fast train from Moorgate to Drayton Park of all places. They have to stop at Drayton Park to switch from dc to ac. (I don't know how they get them out of the way if the pan fails to go up) |
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Post by vinnielo on Jan 24, 2019 8:51:13 GMT
I think that's the first time I've seen a fast train from Moorgate to Drayton Park of all places. I was once on a charter service that was supposed to be non-stop from Potters Bar all the way to Moorgate. They still stopped and opened the doors at all(?) the intermediate stops in the tunnel! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 24, 2019 14:43:04 GMT
Just back from a ride on one. And it did whizz through Old Street and Essex Road without stopping.
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Post by melikepie on Jan 24, 2019 15:24:13 GMT
I commute on that line so I know that's where they changeover. Could the line not handle a changeover at speed? And are we to see fast trains on the Northern City Line with the introduction of the trains?
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 24, 2019 15:38:40 GMT
I commute on that line so I know that's where they changeover. Could the line not handle a changeover at speed? And are we to see fast trains on the Northern City Line with the introduction of the trains? The trains themselves will likely be capable of changing over at speed. If it is disabled it will be entirely software-based. The infrastructure is a completely different story. Changing over between different methods on the move requires certain mitigations within the overhead line equipment and/or third rail equipment. |
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PGtrips
Ahh... don't you just love PG?
Posts: 113
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 25, 2019 14:04:00 GMT
I commute on that line so I know that's where they changeover. Could the line not handle a changeover at speed? And are we to see fast trains on the Northern City Line with the introduction of the trains? The trains themselves will likely be capable of changing over at speed. If it is disabled it will be entirely software-based. The infrastructure is a completely different story. Changing over between different methods on the move requires certain mitigations within the overhead line equipment and/or third rail equipment. And in this case, the 3rd rail and OHLE are only concurrent for the length of Drayton Park platform. Mitigation for a failure to change over is provided by crossovers at each end of the station. It is much more common to fail to get the pan down and change onto DC than the other way round, albeit that failures of this type are pretty rare. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 25, 2019 16:18:44 GMT
[ It is much more common to fail to get the pan down and change onto DC than the other way That is probably not surprising, given that it couldn't have entered service from the depot if the pan was stuck down, so any fault would have had to arise in the relatively short time the train had been in the hole. But if it did fail to rise, the unit would effectively be trapped in the Drayton Park- Moorgate section until it was either fixed or dragged out. Where would it go in the meantime - presumably one of the platforms at Moorgate? Can Moorgate cope with a full service with one platform out of action? With the 313s, such a failure would usually be easy to remedy as each 3-car unit has its own pantograph and if the pantograph fails to raise on one of them, the other unit can pull (or push) it out. Not only is the 717 one unit, but (unlike the 700s) it only has one pantograph................ I seem to recall that the 319s had some problems in the early day of Thameslink, because they used a similar system to the 313s (at the time the only other dual voltage units on BR), but the AC components were not used to being idle for such extended periods as the 319s required (round trips to Brighton, not to mention depot visits to Selhurst) and they sometimes refused to raise the pan when they got to AC country at Farringdon. |
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What you choose to believe is up to you.
