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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 13, 2019 3:02:38 GMT
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Post by nig on Aug 14, 2019 10:15:12 GMT
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Post by superteacher on Aug 14, 2019 10:53:14 GMT
Unless it’s fully air con, there’s no point really. The 2009 stock is air cooled, and still pretty warm although it improved after they switched in the full brake regeneration rate. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 14, 2019 11:40:57 GMT
The 2009 stock is air cooled, and still pretty warm although it improved after they switched in the full brake regeneration rate. Sorry but no air-cooling on 2009 Stock, just recirculated air. |
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Aug 14, 2019 14:04:06 GMT
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Post by jimbo on Aug 14, 2019 20:14:10 GMT
Anyway, for reference, here is a link to how the train may look: We know little about the new trains as yet. It was presumed that there was a single bogie beneath adjoining car ends, although at one time there was talk of each bogie being fully beneath a car end and supporting the adjoining car. I notice on this picture full screen that the second car appears to have shorter body ends as if it is supported from bogies on the cars adjoining either side, as some tramcars! |
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 14, 2019 20:26:25 GMT
It would have to be air conditioning surely since air cooling is water based IIRC.
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Post by 100andthirty on Aug 15, 2019 18:14:12 GMT
Air conditioning and air cooling mean whatever those using the terms want them to mean. To deliver comfortable temperatures some sort of refrigeration will be required.
It's rather like cars specifications that refer to air conditioning and climate control. The former gives the driver coolness, which the driver had to control to produce comfort. The latter is just automatic control of the system to produce a reasonably constant set temperature. S stock effectively had climate control, and I expect the new Piccadilly line trains will have climate control too.
By the way, the process of spraying water is usually referred to as evaporative cooling.
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Post by t697 on Aug 15, 2019 19:12:53 GMT
Seeing mention of "fully air-conditioned", has anyone ever only claimed "partially air-conditioned" I wonder. :-)
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Post by superteacher on Aug 15, 2019 20:15:28 GMT
Seeing mention of "fully air-conditioned", has anyone ever only claimed "partially air-conditioned" I wonder. :-) Yep. It’s called opening the window. 😂😂😂😂 |
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Post by alpinejohn on Sept 29, 2019 17:17:23 GMT
Comparing recent announcements there seems to be signs of possible slippage in the new trains project. Last November TFL said the new Siemens train factory in Goole would be delivering for testing the first trains in 2023 with trains scheduled to enter passenger service in 2024 - so OK that probably means 31 December but that is still not very long ahead once you realise that the factory the new trains are due to be built in does not even exist yet. tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/november/siemens-to-design-and-manufacture-next-generation-tube-trainsNearly a year later and it seems that Siemens have recently got around to placing a project management contract with Mace to oversee the construction of the new Goole factory where the new trains are due to be built. www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/09/26/mace-wins-pm-role-on-200m-siemens-train-factory/The worrying bit is that planning permission for the planned new train manufacturing site has still not yet been obtained. I guess there has been some sort of approval in principle but inherently planners (and local authorities) have every interest in delaying the grant of formal approval as long as possible - if nothing else to extract the absolute maximum planning gain deal that they can secure, because as soon as formal approval is granted any leverage they have is pretty much spent. Whilst the article also says Siemens are still aiming to have the first "phase" of the manufacturing site open in 2023. But given the usual drift to the right with so many rail related projects (Crossrail) - that really does not leave much leeway to get a completely new train manufacturing plant built let alone churning out trains. As the new Piccadilly line trains will be a variant of their existing "Inspiro" product line, is it likely that at least the first batch of these trains will actually be built on the existing production facility in Germany and then just shipped over either as complete trains or as a heap of parts for local bolting together? That approach should if nothing else offer some confidence that the initial batch will potentially appear on schedule and possibly create a fall back production solution for the squadron manufacture and delivery of complete trains from Germany - just in case the Goole site encounters major delays securing all the necessary planning consents. |
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Post by 100andthirty on Sept 29, 2019 19:55:38 GMT
As the new Piccadilly line trains will be a variant of their existing "Inspiro" product line, is it likely that at least the first batch of these trains will actually be built on the existing production facility in Germany and then just shipped over either as complete trains or as a heap of parts for local bolting together? The Siemens metro product line is called Inspiro - it's marketing speak. Don't confuse that with the design of the train. Tube trains have little or nothing on common with other metro trains and the new Piccadilly trains will be no exception. |
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Post by jimbo on Sept 29, 2019 19:57:56 GMT
It was always envisaged that the first trains would come from Europe.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 29, 2019 20:48:12 GMT
As the new Piccadilly line trains will be a variant of their existing "Inspiro" product line, is it likely that at least the first batch of these trains will actually be built on the existing production facility in Germany and then just shipped over either as complete trains or as a heap of parts for local bolting together? The Siemens metro product line is called Inspiro - it's marketing speak. Don't confuse that with the design of the train. Tube trains have little or nothing on common with other metro trains and the new Piccadilly trains will be no exception. Surely it's about the 'platform'? ADtranz had the 'star' platform which was used successfully in varying forms in the UK as the Turbostar, Electrostar and Capitalstar; all different trains but the same core technologies. Whilst the new Piccadilly Line trains will be a bespoke product, as a part of the 'Inspiro' product line I'm sure we can expect some similarities with other products in the family. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 29, 2019 21:14:52 GMT
Absolutely. The 2009 stock and S stock are both part of Bombardier’s ‘Movia’ family; they have an awful lot in common, pretty much to the point where one is a shrunken version of the other. Whilst the designs are generally tailored to the final application, the underlying technology is generally identical.
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Post by 100andthirty on Sept 30, 2019 6:25:11 GMT
2009 tube stock and S stock use a lot of similar circuits in the electrical system and the Bombardier Derby method of assembly was used. Virtually everything else, bogie, motors, shoe gear bodyshell, TCMS, compressor, heat and vent and so on are different. This reflects that, generally, metros can't accommodate standard products.
The electro, turbo, capital -star vehicles had many more similarities, basic bodyshell and bogies being two of them.
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Post by t697 on Sept 30, 2019 20:43:58 GMT
I seem to recall they dubbed 92TS 'Tubestar' retrospectively in some marketing material, but 92TS had virtually nothing in common with the Electrostar/Turbostar trains.
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 1, 2019 11:45:46 GMT
Interestingly the windows on the concept art look small. This may be licence or structural requirements but the square nature remind me of the standard stock from the 1920s! Can two longer windows not replace the three shorter ones?
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Post by jimbo on Oct 2, 2019 4:56:59 GMT
Interestingly the windows on the concept art look small. This may be licence or structural requirements but the square nature remind me of the standard stock from the 1920s! Can two longer windows not replace the three shorter ones? This is a TfL design based on traditions, and with 1938 Tube Stock references, including car nos: 38000. We know little about the new trains. It was presumed that there was a single bogie beneath adjoining car ends, although at one time there was talk of each bogie being fully beneath a car end and supporting the adjoining car. I noticed on this picture full screen that the second car appears to have shorter body ends as if supported from bogies on the cars adjoining either side, as some tramcars! Presuming the doors are spread regularly down the train to even loadings at each, the car end bays have three windows or only one. This would suggest a Picc train of 9 cars, with normal cab cars, three normal two bogie cars spread down the train, and four short wheel-less cars hanging between each! Interesting. |
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Post by nig on Oct 2, 2019 16:08:43 GMT
Interestingly the windows on the concept art look small. This may be licence or structural requirements but the square nature remind me of the standard stock from the 1920s! Can two longer windows not replace the three shorter ones? This is a TfL design based on traditions, and with 1938 Tube Stock references, including car nos: 38000. We know little about the new trains. It was presumed that there was a single bogie beneath adjoining car ends, although at one time there was talk of each bogie being fully beneath a car end and supporting the adjoining car. I noticed on this picture full screen that the second car appears to have shorter body ends as if supported from bogies on the cars adjoining either side, as some tramcars! Presuming the doors are spread regularly down the train to even loadings at each, the car end bays have three windows or only one. This would suggest a Picc train of 9 cars, with normal cab cars, three normal two bogie cars spread down the train, and four short wheel-less cars hanging between each! Interesting. The train will be made up of nine cars, making it continuous train like the S Stock, the cars will be made up of 5 longer cars and 4 shorter cars. This will hopefully allow the train to move through the South Kensington bends quicker than we can now. Most of the train equipment will be on the shorter cars and the train will be fully air conditioned. |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 2, 2019 19:32:38 GMT
This is a TfL design based on traditions, and with 1938 Tube Stock references, including car nos: 38000. We know little about the new trains. It was presumed that there was a single bogie beneath adjoining car ends, although at one time there was talk of each bogie being fully beneath a car end and supporting the adjoining car. I noticed on this picture full screen that the second car appears to have shorter body ends as if supported from bogies on the cars adjoining either side, as some tramcars! Presuming the doors are spread regularly down the train to even loadings at each, the car end bays have three windows or only one. This would suggest a Picc train of 9 cars, with normal cab cars, three normal two bogie cars spread down the train, and four short wheel-less cars hanging between each! Interesting. The train will be made up of nine cars, making it continuous train like the S Stock, the cars will be made up of 5 longer cars and 4 shorter cars. This will hopefully allow the train to move through the South Kensington bends quicker than we can now. Most of the train equipment will be on the shorter cars and the train will be fully air conditioned. All nine cars will therefore be shorter than the traditional 1938 / 1959 tube stock cars. I presume most equipment will be under the shorter cars because there are no bogies taking up room, and on the other cars the two bogies take up most of the space thus preventing substantial equipment from being mounted beneath. Will there be any test train to trial the concept? |
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Post by nig on Nov 13, 2019 19:51:53 GMT
Apologies for the bump, but I have been hearing conflicting noises about whether the new trains will be air conditioned or air cooled. Does anybody have any more info? just seen that looks like will be air cooled then .. seen the pictures of the insides as well but doubt if can post them on here . Complete Concept Design New Piccadilly line Rolling Stock and present first look Walkthrough DTUP air cooled trains The milestone was delivered to original forecast and 2 1/2 months early of the target |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 21, 2019 10:11:19 GMT
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 21, 2019 11:26:06 GMT
Reading her letter, the Baroness doesn't sound happy!
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Post by superteacher on Dec 21, 2019 19:42:07 GMT
Reading her letter, the Baroness doesn't sound happy! Nope, and she probably won’t acknowledge that as a politician, she is partly responsible for TFL’s financial plight. 😵 |
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Dec 21, 2019 20:07:31 GMT
Given the circumstances, it seems like a sensible decision.
Is 4 years a realistic time frame to see the first new train on the line?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 22, 2019 9:22:16 GMT
Siemens were awarded the contract in November 2018 so they've had a year already, another four years is about right compared to past deliveries of new stock.
Baroness Vere wasn't a MP or a peer in 2013 when George Osborne decided to withdraw TfL's operating subsidy, she was elevated to the House of Lords in David Cameron's resignation honours list in 2016 and was only given the job at the DfT in April this year.
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 22, 2019 18:01:31 GMT
Reading her letter, the Baroness doesn't sound happy! Well I suppose she could have said 'no' and have the lines closed. It would certainly put everyone on a level playing field - albeit with implications that would have been exceptionally bad for London - and even the wider British economy! Or she could have asked if there could be a way to speed up the process - and offer to help fund this 'speed up'. One way the process could be speeded up would be to have the trains destined for the Central line use the same automation system as at present. We know it works, and it provides exceptional performance. The added side-effect would be significantly less irksome disruption to passengers (from line closures) caused by installing and testing an alternative automated train control system! edit to add: just for clarity and open-ness, I will point out that I my nearest UndergrounD station is on the Central line - so I do have a vested interest in fewer (or even zero) line closures caused by works to change the signalling system. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 22, 2019 23:06:27 GMT
Reading her letter, the Baroness doesn't sound happy! We know it works, and it provides exceptional performance. Except when it's raining, apparently. |
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 23, 2019 18:29:31 GMT
I did notice in the recent rain how a train slowed down nearly to a halt halfway along the platform at Leyton. Obviously it was being driven by a real human - not a computer. But I'd rather have this than minimum braking by a computer - even where and when its not needed - this being something that has been mentioned on other threads as a negative side effect of automation using more modern automation technologies.
New trains will (one hopes) have better braking capability, with this being a train function / not solely a function of the automated train control system.
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