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Guards
Mar 25, 2018 23:53:51 GMT
Post by philthetube on Mar 25, 2018 23:53:51 GMT
Not on the same level but I remember as a kid travelling on the Central line from Epping in the guards car and thinking, (in the 60s) what a primitive system to operate the doors, never guessing that 30 years later I would be doing that job on the Northern. I couldn't believe that people were allowed to hang out of trains like that, it would be even less believable now.
Hope this dosent take the thread off topic.
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Guards
Apr 3, 2018 22:27:17 GMT
Post by Tomcakes on Apr 3, 2018 22:27:17 GMT
Not on the same level but I remember as a kid travelling on the Central line from Epping in the guards car and thinking, (in the 60s) what a primitive system to operate the doors, never guessing that 30 years later I would be doing that job on the Northern. I couldn't believe that people were allowed to hang out of trains like that, it would be even less believable now. Hope this dosent take the thread off topic. I only remember guards on the Central and Northern lines in the mid 90s, but what makes me feel old is that, describing the way guards used to hang out the door to someone in their early twenties, they were astounded. Can you imagine the risk assessment? |
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class411
Operations: Normal
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Guards
Apr 4, 2018 7:48:31 GMT
Post by class411 on Apr 4, 2018 7:48:31 GMT
Not on the same level but I remember as a kid travelling on the Central line from Epping in the guards car and thinking, (in the 60s) what a primitive system to operate the doors, never guessing that 30 years later I would be doing that job on the Northern. I couldn't believe that people were allowed to hang out of trains like that, it would be even less believable now. Hope this dosent take the thread off topic. I only remember guards on the Central and Northern lines in the mid 90s, but what makes me feel old is that, describing the way guards used to hang out the door to someone in their early twenties, they were astounded. Can you imagine the risk assessment? I would say the risk is relatively low. Certainly lower than the risk to someone using a crutch and having to get out of a train in the rush hour at the least favourable point on a very curved platform. You have an able bodied man (back then) with something specifically designed to hold on to, undergoing a reasonably linear acceleration, and looking carefully in the direction of travel. A lot safer than some of the things builders do from time to time. In the entire history of the underground, is there any record of an accident caused by this practice in the hundreds of thousands of times it was performed? |
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Chris M
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Guards
Apr 4, 2018 10:40:50 GMT
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Post by Chris M on Apr 4, 2018 10:40:50 GMT
In the entire history of the underground, is there any record of an accident caused by this practice in the hundreds of thousands of times it was performed? I remember a post on the forum years ago about a Northern liner guard who lost his head doing this, having forgotten about the Hendon to Colindale tunnel |
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Post by PiccNT on Apr 4, 2018 11:49:26 GMT
What evidence was there to suggest that he forgot about it :-)
One of our drivers had an incident with the headwall and his head whilst on the Northern Line. Perhaps taking too much interest in a passenger on the platform rather than the approaching headwall! Fortunately he lives to tell the tale.
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class411
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Guards
Apr 4, 2018 13:19:37 GMT
Post by class411 on Apr 4, 2018 13:19:37 GMT
In the entire history of the underground, is there any record of an accident caused by this practice in the hundreds of thousands of times it was performed? I remember a post on the forum years ago about a Northern liner guard who lost his head doing this, having forgotten about the Hendon to Colindale tunnel Presumably he missed out the 'looking carefully in the direction of travel' bit. When I posed the question, I thought that the only likely accident would be not holding on properly and falling out. Possibly colliding with a passenger if they were being really careless. |
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Guards
Apr 4, 2018 15:46:11 GMT
Post by revupminster on Apr 4, 2018 15:46:11 GMT
Experienced guards closed there door well before the headwall as any distraction could be fatal. Also it deterred passengers trying to get in as the train was moving off though some did. The head story is true.
This is quite good. Even in open sections they did not keep the door open very long.
Just an observation in this video; the guard more often sat in a passenger seat between stations.
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Post by brigham on Apr 4, 2018 18:06:09 GMT
Probably the most effective way to ensure passenger safety.
Don't forget; sacking the guard was to save money, not to reduce risk.
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Guards
Apr 5, 2018 2:15:35 GMT
Post by philthetube on Apr 5, 2018 2:15:35 GMT
Experienced guards closed there door well before the headwall as any distraction could be fatal. Also it deterred passengers trying to get in as the train was moving off though some did. The head story is true. This is quite good. Even in open sections they did not keep the door open very long. Just an observation in this video; the guard more often sat in a passenger seat between stations. Guards were supposed to monitor the platform until one third out of the platform, to ensure safe departure. the red handle above the guards panel is an emergency brake handle which was pulled down to stop the train, hence the expression "pulling him down"
Interestingly the guard acts incorrectly at the five minute point, you see him push the button to close the guards door as the train moves off then continue to watch the platform, presumably keeping the door open with his shoulder or foot.. He should not do this for safety reasons. Should he happen to fall off the train the door would close and might trap his foot dragging him along the platform, if button not pushed then he would just fall clear.
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Guards
Apr 5, 2018 3:09:25 GMT
Post by principlesdesigner on Apr 5, 2018 3:09:25 GMT
Experienced guards closed there door well before the headwall as any distraction could be fatal. Also it deterred passengers trying to get in as the train was moving off though some did. The head story is true. This is quite good. Even in open sections they did not keep the door open very long. Just an observation in this video; the guard more often sat in a passenger seat between stations. Guards were supposed to monitor the platform until one third out of the platform, to ensure safe departure. the red handle above the guards panel is an emergency brake handle which was pulled down to stop the train, hence the expression "pulling him down"
Interestingly the guard acts incorrectly at the five minute point, you see him push the button to close the guards door as the train moves off then continue to watch the platform, presumably keeping the door open with his shoulder or foot.. He should not do this for safety reasons. Should he happen to fall off the train the door would close and might trap his foot dragging him along the platform, if button not pushed then he would just fall clear. I remember seeing many a guard do this on the Northern - I thought it was standard practice! |
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class411
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Guards
Apr 5, 2018 6:53:50 GMT
Post by class411 on Apr 5, 2018 6:53:50 GMT
Guards were supposed to monitor the platform until one third out of the platform, to ensure safe departure. the red handle above the guards panel is an emergency brake handle which was pulled down to stop the train, hence the expression "pulling him down"
Interestingly the guard acts incorrectly at the five minute point, you see him push the button to close the guards door as the train moves off then continue to watch the platform, presumably keeping the door open with his shoulder or foot.. He should not do this for safety reasons. Should he happen to fall off the train the door would close and might trap his foot dragging him along the platform, if button not pushed then he would just fall clear.
Does anyone know what the advantage of the non standard procedure would have been? (Apart, I suppose, of stopping a truly desperate commuter from trying to barge in [or worse, out] past the guard?) |
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Guards
Apr 5, 2018 9:02:52 GMT
Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 5, 2018 9:02:52 GMT
Trying to imagine it - I would guess the door itself, as it is trying to close, holds you more firmly than a handrail could (provided the remaining gap is smaller than you are!) And it's probably harder to hit the close-door button on a lurching platform with the doorway still fully open, especially if you have to let go of the handrail to do so. Evidently the door engines did not fail (or re-open!) if they encountered such an obstruction, but whether this was deliberate design or fortuitous, who can say?
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Guards
Apr 5, 2018 11:16:24 GMT
Post by spsmiler on Apr 5, 2018 11:16:24 GMT
I feel sure that at least once a guard did not bring his head inside the train before the part of the train he was travelling in reached the tunnel.
A very very rare event... but it happened.
RIP
Simon
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neilw
now that's what I call a garden railway
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Post by neilw on Apr 5, 2018 11:31:52 GMT
I heard tell of an event on the Central, told to me in the early seventies but not sure of the incident date, but think it was 62 tube stock. Guard had the habit of closing his door along with passenger doors, holding it open with foot, watching as train went down platform, move foot, sit down. On one occasion said guard still had his weight on the foot which was on the platform, shut his door, and driver was a bit quick away. Guard fell onto platform but his door closed onto his ankle, dragging him down the platform on his bum and skittling the recently alighted passengers. He managed to get his foot out before he reached the headwall. The first the driver knew was when he stopped at next station and heard the anxious passengers banging on the inside of the unopened doors. On investigation, he discovered no guard. Guard was OK other than seriously ripped trousers! I seem to recall Marble Arch featured somewhere in the tale....
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Post by superteacher on Apr 5, 2018 12:01:08 GMT
I heard tell of an event on the Central, told to me in the early seventies but not sure of the incident date, but think it was 62 tube stock. Guard had the habit of closing his door along with passenger doors, holding it open with foot, watching as train went down platform, move foot, sit down. On one occasion said guard still had his weight on the foot which was on the platform, shut his door, and driver was a bit quick away. Guard fell onto platform but his door closed onto his ankle, dragging him down the platform on his bum and skittling the recently alighted passengers. He managed to get his foot out before he reached the headwall. The first the driver knew was when he stopped at next station and heard the anxious passengers banging on the inside of the unopened doors. On investigation, he discovered no guard. Guard was OK other than seriously ripped trousers! I seem to recall Marble Arch featured somewhere in the tale.... But the driver wouldn’t start the train until the guard gave the bell signal. Hard to believe he would give the signal whilst he still had his foot on the platform! |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Guards
Apr 5, 2018 12:29:41 GMT
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Post by North End on Apr 5, 2018 12:29:41 GMT
I remember seeing many a guard do this on the Northern - I thought it was standard practice! Does anyone know what the advantage of the non standard procedure would have been? (Apart, I suppose, of stopping a truly desperate commuter from trying to barge in [or worse, out] past the guard?) One advantage would be being able to press the guards door close button immediately after pressing the signal button, then not needing to touch the panel again until the next station. As others have said, this was pretty common practice on the Northern Line in the 1990s, as was running around with the doors open in open sections during hot weather. |
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Guards
Apr 5, 2018 12:33:51 GMT
Post by superteacher on Apr 5, 2018 12:33:51 GMT
A brief clip here.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Guards
Apr 12, 2018 0:42:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 0:42:58 GMT
I heard tell of an event on the Central, told to me in the early seventies but not sure of the incident date, but think it was 62 tube stock. Guard had the habit of closing his door along with passenger doors, holding it open with foot, watching as train went down platform, move foot, sit down. On one occasion said guard still had his weight on the foot which was on the platform, shut his door, and driver was a bit quick away. Guard fell onto platform but his door closed onto his ankle, dragging him down the platform on his bum and skittling the recently alighted passengers. He managed to get his foot out before he reached the headwall. The first the driver knew was when he stopped at next station and heard the anxious passengers banging on the inside of the unopened doors. On investigation, he discovered no guard. Guard was OK other than seriously ripped trousers! I seem to recall Marble Arch featured somewhere in the tale.... But the driver wouldn’t start the train until the guard gave the bell signal. Hard to believe he would give the signal whilst he still had his foot on the platform! Way back when our metro system had guards, the guard would give the buzzer signal to the driver it was clear to move and after the train was moving would give another buzzer signal to let the driver know all was good and that the guard was actually on the train. I remember this from my younger days. |
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towerman
My status is now now widower
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Guards
Apr 13, 2018 10:18:22 GMT
Post by towerman on Apr 13, 2018 10:18:22 GMT
Was a fatality to a guard at Chancery Lane EB in the 70s,rumour had it that he saw an attractive woman on the platform and forgot about the headwall!!
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Guards
Apr 13, 2018 13:45:18 GMT
Post by trt on Apr 13, 2018 13:45:18 GMT
Isn't that red handle only above one panel though?
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Guards
Apr 13, 2018 13:50:11 GMT
Post by trt on Apr 13, 2018 13:50:11 GMT
But the driver wouldn’t start the train until the guard gave the bell signal. Hard to believe he would give the signal whilst he still had his foot on the platform! Way back when our metro system had guards, the guard would give the buzzer signal to the driver it was clear to move and after the train was moving would give another buzzer signal to let the driver know all was good and that the guard was actually on the train. I remember this from my younger days. Surely this isn't as safe? How does one signal a stop? It's usually one bell, so that the action can be taken immediately. Two bells is ready to start. The two bell signal is repeated back by the driver to confirm that it was received correctly. |
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Guards
Apr 13, 2018 16:24:01 GMT
Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 13, 2018 16:24:01 GMT
, the guard would give the buzzer signal to the driver it was clear to move and after the train was moving would give another buzzer signal to let the driver know all was good and that the guard was actually on the train.. Surely this isn't as safe? How does one signal a stop? It's usually one bell, so that the action can be taken immediately. Two bells is ready to start. The two bell signal is repeated back by the driver to confirm that it was received correctly. I understood him to say the guard gave two buzzes to go, the driver acknowledged it with another two buzzes, and the guard then sent another two buzzes once under way to confirm he is on board. If the driver hears one buzz after the train has started it obviously means the guard is on board, but that he wants the train to stop. |
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Guards
Apr 13, 2018 16:53:41 GMT
Post by trt on Apr 13, 2018 16:53:41 GMT
Surely this isn't as safe? How does one signal a stop? It's usually one bell, so that the action can be taken immediately. Two bells is ready to start. The two bell signal is repeated back by the driver to confirm that it was received correctly. I understood him to say the guard gave two buzzes to go, the driver acknowledged it with another two buzzes, and the guard then sent another two buzzes once under way to confirm he is on board. If the driver hears one buzz after the train has started it obviously means the guard is on board, but that he wants the train to stop. Thou shalt not count to two excepting that thou then progress to three... If the driver hears one buzz after the train has started moving then he shouldn't wait to hear a second buzz before applying the brakes! Even if it is measurable in fractions of a second. |
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Guards
Apr 13, 2018 19:01:09 GMT
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Post by greggygreggygreg on Apr 13, 2018 19:01:09 GMT
On the Underground it was always one ding to start, rather than two as on British Rail.
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Guards
Apr 13, 2018 19:04:12 GMT
Post by superteacher on Apr 13, 2018 19:04:12 GMT
On the Underground it was always one ding to start, rather than two as on British Rail. And there was no requirement for the driver to acknowledge the guard’s signal. |
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Guards
Apr 13, 2018 23:09:32 GMT
Post by roythebus on Apr 13, 2018 23:09:32 GMT
Yes, some guards DID give the starting bell whilst still on the platform. Remember in earlier times the guard had to signal to the driver by touching the top of his flag on exposed wires over the platform. In those days doors may have been all hand-worked too. Tales of guards losing their heads abound, fortunately not too many of them. On open and tunnel sections guards would sometimes keep their door open between stations in summer to let a bit of slightly cooler air circulate. I never heard of any guards being injured through these practices. and yes, sometimes I pressed the guards door close and kept my back on the door to keep it open. Dunno why, it was one of those things we did. In those days we did a lot of Things That Wouldn't Be tolerated Today. But hardly anyone got injured doing those things. In those days we weren't mollycoddled, didn't have the blame and claim culture. We had respect for the trains and the railway and most knew what they could get away with. Isn't that red handle only above one panel though? Yes. <<superteacher: Posts merged to prevent consecutive posting.>>
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Post by lazythread on Apr 14, 2018 7:15:37 GMT
Life has moved on since the days of guards, but being old enough to just remember "standard" pre-1938 stock on the Piccadilly, I have to say that station stops were much slicker. The only frustation with today's Underground, which I think is fantastic, is that by the time the doors finally open, in the past, I would have been through them and half way up the escalator. My 24-year-old daughter thinks it's funny I get so frustrated at the wait.
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rincew1nd
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Guards
Apr 14, 2018 7:25:58 GMT
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 14, 2018 7:25:58 GMT
Life has moved on since the days of guards, but being old enough to just remember "standard" pre-1938 stock on the Piccadilly, I have to say that station stops were much slicker. The only frustation with today's Underground, which I think is fantastic, is that by the time the doors finally open, in the past, I would have been through them and half way up the escalator. My 24-year-old daughter thinks it's funny I get so frustrated at the wait. AIUI this is mainly an issue on the automatic lines, there is a slight delay whilst the computer(s) confirm the train has stopped in the right place. How urgent is your journey if those few seconds matter‽ |
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Guards
Apr 14, 2018 7:35:57 GMT
Post by superteacher on Apr 14, 2018 7:35:57 GMT
Life has moved on since the days of guards, but being old enough to just remember "standard" pre-1938 stock on the Piccadilly, I have to say that station stops were much slicker. The only frustation with today's Underground, which I think is fantastic, is that by the time the doors finally open, in the past, I would have been through them and half way up the escalator. My 24-year-old daughter thinks it's funny I get so frustrated at the wait. AIUI this is mainly an issue on the automatic lines, there is a slight delay whilst the computer(s) confirm the train has stopped in the right place. How urgent is your journey if those few seconds matter‽ Although it’s never a problem on the Victoria line - sometimes those doors open before the train has stopped! |
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Guards
Apr 14, 2018 7:44:18 GMT
Post by brigham on Apr 14, 2018 7:44:18 GMT
Lift doors start to open before the cage has stopped. (Otis automatic ones, at least). It's to speed-up operation, and the idea that 'a few seconds don't make much difference' obviously cuts no mustard in THAT field.
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