rincew1nd
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Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
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Guards
Apr 14, 2018 8:08:57 GMT
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 14, 2018 8:08:57 GMT
I wonder if that's intentional, or simply a characteristic of how they operate. That is the doors can open as long as the car is detected within the appropriate range, a bit like CSDE on the A,C,D stocks et cetera.
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Guards
Apr 14, 2018 8:12:50 GMT
Post by superteacher on Apr 14, 2018 8:12:50 GMT
I wonder if that's intentional, or simply a characteristic of how they operate. That is the doors can open as long as the car is detected within the appropriate range, a bit like CSDE on the A,C,D stocks et cetera. Maybe a characteristic of the Vic line’s ATO system? I don’t think it’s actually possible on the other ATO lines because I’ve certainly never encountered it.
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Post by lazythread on Apr 14, 2018 8:30:06 GMT
Life has moved on since the days of guards, but being old enough to just remember "standard" pre-1938 stock on the Piccadilly, I have to say that station stops were much slicker. The only frustation with today's Underground, which I think is fantastic, is that by the time the doors finally open, in the past, I would have been through them and half way up the escalator. My 24-year-old daughter thinks it's funny I get so frustrated at the wait. AIUI this is mainly an issue on the automatic lines, there is a slight delay whilst the computer(s) confirm the train has stopped in the right place. How urgent is your journey if those few seconds matter‽ At my age ALL my journeys are urgent
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Guards
Apr 14, 2018 9:49:29 GMT
Post by t697 on Apr 14, 2018 9:49:29 GMT
How urgent is your journey if those few seconds matter‽ A second or two at every station soon matters. Just 1.5 seconds is over a minute on an Ealing to Upminster trip, which affects timetabling and potentially the service capability. Or maybe 10-15 seconds on an average passenger journey. Surely that is worth the trouble?
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Guards
Apr 14, 2018 10:45:42 GMT
Post by superteacher on Apr 14, 2018 10:45:42 GMT
Only on this forum could we end up discussing ATO in a thread about guards!! (I'm guilty ) I do agree though, things did seem slicker with guards, although some seemed to leave the doors open for ages while others nearly shut you in because they were so quick!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2018 11:29:27 GMT
Only on this forum could we end up discussing ATO in a thread about guards!! (I'm guilty ) I do agree though, things did seem slicker with guards, although some seemed to leave the doors open for ages while others nearly shut you in because they were so quick! Not necessarily just an impression if Piers Connor, writing in "The London Underground Electric Train", is to be believed (and of course he is ) That, however, was C stock, what will happen with S stock and ATO and the possibility of the doors opening themselves too(!) I can't really say.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 14, 2018 11:35:28 GMT
I always remember some drivers getting impatient with guards who took their time; they would "notch up" as a subtle hint to get a move on!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2018 11:43:29 GMT
How urgent is your journey if those few seconds matter‽ I think if it's the difference between making a connection and not then it is quite important and for those of us who get to work by taking the first train, there isn't necessarily that option of getting out of bed 5, 10, 15 minutes earlier and getting the one before. Also, psychologically, it might be silly but there's nothing more frustrating than watching the doors of the train you were hoping to change onto close before your eyes as you make your way across a platform for a cross-platform interchange, or even as you wait for your train to finally get on with the important business of stopping and opening its doors for you Also, if you are coming home after a long day at work and you just miss a train you were hoping to change onto, it might not matter if the next train will be along in just a few minutes, but if it means I get to Woodford just after the Hainault train has left (possibly sitting outside Woodford waiting for it to leave) instead of just before it, that can be a little bit disheartening, it means I will get home twenty minutes later than I otherwise would have, which means I will end up in bed twenty minutes later, which makes getting that first train the following morning just that little bit harder. I know it's not walking five miles every morning to fetch clean water or landing on the beeches at Dunkirk, but a few seconds while the train decides that yes it is absolutely safe to open those doors can cost me twenty minutes of quality time with the person I love and I don't feel too bad about getting frustrated by that
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hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
Posts: 516
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Guards
Apr 14, 2018 16:03:55 GMT
Post by hobbayne on Apr 14, 2018 16:03:55 GMT
Back on topic. The Guard would open his guards door and immediately close it, blocking it so it would not close completely. This was to stop passengers trying to board the train through the Guards door. I had one punter open the connecting door from the adjacent car and seeing me with the guards bar down , proceeded to do some sort of strange limbo under it!!
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class411
Operations: Normal
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Guards
Apr 15, 2018 8:27:13 GMT
Post by class411 on Apr 15, 2018 8:27:13 GMT
I always remember some drivers getting impatient with guards who took their time; they would "notch up" as a subtle hint to get a move on! I've checked and 'notch-up' is not in the terminology list. Sounds intriguing, though. Assuming he's not going to actually move the train, the only think I can think of is momentarily applying power against the brakes, which seems hard to believe. Or is it a signalling term?
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Guards
Apr 15, 2018 8:38:26 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 15, 2018 8:38:26 GMT
I've checked and 'notch-up' is not in the terminology list. Sounds intriguing, though. Assuming he's not going to actually move the train, the only think I can think of is momentarily applying power against the brakes, which seems hard to believe. Or is it a signalling term? Yes, notch-up the master controller against the brakes. In crew operation the doors closed circuit were not linked to the control wires.
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Guards
Apr 15, 2018 13:09:04 GMT
Post by superteacher on Apr 15, 2018 13:09:04 GMT
I've checked and 'notch-up' is not in the terminology list. Sounds intriguing, though. Assuming he's not going to actually move the train, the only think I can think of is momentarily applying power against the brakes, which seems hard to believe. Or is it a signalling term? Yes, notch-up the master controller against the brakes. In crew operation the doors closed circuit were not linked to the control wires. In fact the only thing a lack of doors closed circuit prevented was the guard sending the bell signal to start. Notching up was also used to free a sticky door.
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Deleted
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Guards
Apr 23, 2018 17:28:21 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 17:28:21 GMT
Just a quick question about Guards on the Jubilee line on the 1972 Mark 2 stock why did the Guards dispatch from the NDM
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Guards
Apr 23, 2018 17:38:30 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 23, 2018 17:38:30 GMT
Just a quick question about Guards on the Jubilee line on the 1972 Mark 2 stock why did the Guards dispatch from the NDM NDM Non-Driving Motor cars were not fitted with Guards equipment, it was the DM Driving Motor cars, at the opposite end to the driver.
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Deleted
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Guards
Apr 23, 2018 21:22:39 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 21:22:39 GMT
Sorry what I meant to say was the DM in the middle of the train, I can't every recall seeing a Jubilee Line Guard dispatching a 72 stock from the rear DM
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Guards
Apr 23, 2018 21:25:16 GMT
Post by superteacher on Apr 23, 2018 21:25:16 GMT
Sorry what I meant to say was the DM in the middle of the train, I can't every recall seeing a Jubilee Line Guard dispatching a 72 stock from the rear DM No it was the rear car.
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Guards
Apr 23, 2018 22:31:26 GMT
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 23, 2018 22:31:26 GMT
There were, I think, special NDMs with guards positions for the nine-car project on the Northern Line, as the guard ride on the seventh car of the train.
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metman
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Guards
Apr 25, 2018 16:38:17 GMT
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Post by metman on Apr 25, 2018 16:38:17 GMT
That’s correct. The seventh car was the SNDM so the the guard would be in the platform.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Guards
Apr 26, 2018 12:17:46 GMT
Post by roythebus on Apr 26, 2018 12:17:46 GMT
I always remember some drivers getting impatient with guards who took their time; they would "notch up" as a subtle hint to get a move on! I've checked and 'notch-up' is not in the terminology list. Sounds intriguing, though. Assuming he's not going to actually move the train, the only think I can think of is momentarily applying power against the brakes, which seems hard to believe. Or is it a signalling term? That's the difference between "new boys" and the old skool. We all know what notching up is. To open the deadman to first notch to jog the train then shut off immediately. This may be used by the motorman to either speed the guard up or to try to shift a sticky door. I doubt if the same could be done on modern stock, too many interlocks!
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Guards
Apr 26, 2018 12:38:27 GMT
Post by John Tuthill on Apr 26, 2018 12:38:27 GMT
I've checked and 'notch-up' is not in the terminology list. Sounds intriguing, though. Assuming he's not going to actually move the train, the only think I can think of is momentarily applying power against the brakes, which seems hard to believe. Or is it a signalling term? That's the difference between "new boys" and the old skool. We all know what notching up is. To open the deadman to first notch to jog the train then shut off immediately. This may be used by the motorman to either speed the guard up or to try to shift a sticky door. I doubt if the same could be done on modern stock, too many interlocks! I remember this quite vividly. As a kid coming back from my grans in Shephers Bush, when we changed at TCR for the Northern Line to Stockwell, the trains were heaving with soldiers and sailors. At Waterloo it took longer for them to all pile out and the motorman would 'notch up'The first time I witnessed it I thought the train was leaving with all the doors open! Often saw the guard use the 'speakerphone' to advise the motorman of the delay.
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Guards
Apr 26, 2018 16:21:44 GMT
Post by programmes1 on Apr 26, 2018 16:21:44 GMT
I've checked and 'notch-up' is not in the terminology list. Sounds intriguing, though. Assuming he's not going to actually move the train, the only think I can think of is momentarily applying power against the brakes, which seems hard to believe. Or is it a signalling term? That's the difference between "new boys" and the old skool. We all know what notching up is. To open the deadman to first notch to jog the train then shut off immediately. This may be used by the motorman to either speed the guard up or to try to shift a sticky door. I doubt if the same could be done on modern stock, too many interlocks! Don't you mean move the Master controller.
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class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,744
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Guards
Apr 26, 2018 16:26:50 GMT
Post by class411 on Apr 26, 2018 16:26:50 GMT
I've checked and 'notch-up' is not in the terminology list. Sounds intriguing, though. Assuming he's not going to actually move the train, the only think I can think of is momentarily applying power against the brakes, which seems hard to believe. Or is it a signalling term? That's the difference between "new boys" and the old skool. We all know what notching up is. To open the deadman to first notch to jog the train then shut off immediately. This may be used by the motorman to either speed the guard up or to try to shift a sticky door. I doubt if the same could be done on modern stock, too many interlocks! Well, in my case, it's noting to do with 'old school' because I'm not a train driver. Although when my love of the underground started I'm sure notching up was still a thing.
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class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,744
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Guards
Apr 26, 2018 16:28:16 GMT
Post by class411 on Apr 26, 2018 16:28:16 GMT
That's the difference between "new boys" and the old skool. We all know what notching up is. To open the deadman to first notch to jog the train then shut off immediately. This may be used by the motorman to either speed the guard up or to try to shift a sticky door. I doubt if the same could be done on modern stock, too many interlocks! I remember this quite vividly. As a kid coming back from my grans in Shephers Bush, when we changed at TCR for the Northern Line to Stockwell, the trains were heaving with soldiers and sailors. At Waterloo it took longer for them to all pile out and the motorman would 'notch up'The first time I witnessed it I thought the train was leaving with all the doors open! Often saw the guard use the 'speakerphone' to advise the motorman of the delay. I keep reading people talking about 'getting the pilot light' when the doors are closed, so how could the driver energise the motors when passenger doors were still open (to let the squaddies out)?
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Guards
Apr 26, 2018 16:41:42 GMT
Post by domh245 on Apr 26, 2018 16:41:42 GMT
Presumably in the good old days, interlocking wasn't a thing and you just had to rely on the motorman to not drive away before being given the starting signal.
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Guards
Apr 26, 2018 16:44:07 GMT
Post by superteacher on Apr 26, 2018 16:44:07 GMT
I remember this quite vividly. As a kid coming back from my grans in Shephers Bush, when we changed at TCR for the Northern Line to Stockwell, the trains were heaving with soldiers and sailors. At Waterloo it took longer for them to all pile out and the motorman would 'notch up'The first time I witnessed it I thought the train was leaving with all the doors open! Often saw the guard use the 'speakerphone' to advise the motorman of the delay. I keep reading people talking about 'getting the pilot light' when the doors are closed, so how could the driver energise the motors when passenger doors were still open (to let the squaddies out)? Easy. The door closed circuit wasn’t linked to the driver’s controller. The only thing that a lack of pilot light prevented was the guard giving the starting bell signal to the driver. EDIT: Pretty much what domh245 said above.
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Guards
Apr 26, 2018 17:33:49 GMT
Post by brigham on Apr 26, 2018 17:33:49 GMT
'Notching-up' is the (electric) tramway term for accelerating the car, for obvious reasons. ('Gripping' is the cable equivalent. This is NOT the same as 'taking rope')
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Post by pgb on Apr 26, 2018 20:34:23 GMT
There was some discussion about the guard being on the train at the time of departure. If you want an example of what happens when things go very wrong with driver / guard communication. Read THIS
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Guards
May 11, 2018 15:36:52 GMT
Post by davethewomble on May 11, 2018 15:36:52 GMT
There is an amount of discussion above about how the guard signals to the driver that the train is ready to depart.
I was wondering today, as the train arrived in the station, stopped, then shuffled forward before the doors opened, how would the guard know when the train stops that the driver will not make a further movement, and they may open the doors?
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Guards
May 11, 2018 17:01:33 GMT
Post by tjw on May 11, 2018 17:01:33 GMT
There is an amount of discussion above about how the guard signals to the driver that the train is ready to depart. I was wondering today, as the train arrived in the station, stopped, then shuffled forward before the doors opened, how would the guard know when the train stops that the driver will not make a further movement, and they may open the doors? In the past guard would be expected to check (test) the brake (vacuum or Air), he would have a gauge with the reading and a handle to open the pipe and put the brakes on in his area / van. If the Guard was watching the gauge he would see when the driver put on the brake as the gauge would go to 0, this would be good time to open the doors. Of course the Guard was also expected to have route knowledge and look out for signals under the BR rule book, so I would expect a guard to know the stopping point just as well as the driver.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on May 15, 2018 18:25:41 GMT
The guards' position on underground stock did not have a gauge to show brake pressure; it showed train line pressure and would (or should) remain at 65psi unless the Westinghouse brake was being used or the emergency handle operated. Once the train had stopped the drive would NOT move again until he got the guard's bell signal.
If the guard noticed the train had stopped short he would talk to the driver on the Loudaphone before opening the doors to see what the driver wanted to do.
The brake handle in the guard's position (and on BR stock) would either expel train line air to atmosphere and apply the brake or on vacuum stock admit air into the brake pipe and destroy the vacuum, thereby applying the brake. In both cases the gauge would drop to zero. This would NOT indicate the brake cylinder pressure. The brake would apply on the whole train, not just in the guard's van!
Guards have to have route knowledge; on LT they were emergency motorman and had to know the route almost as well as the motorman.
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