Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,767
|
Post by Chris M on Jan 22, 2018 11:15:55 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 22, 2018 16:32:54 GMT
A familiar name with those of us at LU, former Chief Operating Officer of LU.
|
|
|
Post by philthetube on Jan 23, 2018 2:27:34 GMT
Something which cannot happen on the underground, all terminal platforms are protected with tripcock/trainstop arrangements to ensure trains do not do mere then 10mph in these platforms.
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 23, 2018 6:39:57 GMT
Something which cannot happen on the underground, all terminal platforms are protected with tripcock/trainstop arrangements to ensure trains do not do mere then 10mph in these platforms. Except on the ATC/ATO lines of course, where there are no such physical items. The professionalism of drivers on manual Lines prevents the equipment being tested at terminal stations.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 23, 2018 7:48:11 GMT
Something which cannot happen on the underground, all terminal platforms are protected with tripcock/trainstop arrangements to ensure trains do not do mere then 10mph in these platforms. It didn't stop a D stock train mounting the buffers at Richmond one day in c1990.
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 23, 2018 8:37:56 GMT
It didn't stop a D stock train mounting the buffers at Richmond one day in c1990. No trainstop protection was installed at Richmond before the 1987 over-run and probably wouldn’t have prevented it as the train slid on greased rails.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 23, 2018 10:20:46 GMT
No trainstop protection was installed at Richmond before the 1987 over-run . Any reason why not? The line was BR owned but that didn't stop trainstops being fitted elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2018 11:21:01 GMT
Not terribly relevant to the incident but I have actually been to that Richmond station. Made a point of visiting when I was out in Sydney doing some work for Cityrail many, many years ago. They'd just painted all the lamp posts red in a "NSE" stylee.
I see the Oz press don't spare the gore in their reporting.
|
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,744
|
Post by class411 on Jan 23, 2018 11:42:14 GMT
It seems that the train hit at significant speed, estimated by one witness in the platform as "50 to 70 kilometres an hour" (30-45mph) and that it did not appear to break Pretty amazing that it didn't break after hitting the buffers at that speed.
|
|
|
Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jan 23, 2018 12:25:28 GMT
I see the Oz press don't spare the gore in their reporting. Shame that isn't it? A bit more respect for the injured is in order IMHO.
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 23, 2018 12:37:04 GMT
Any reason why not? The line was BR owned but that didn't stop trainstops being fitted elsewhere. As has been mentioned in these pages before, 'Moorgate protection' signalling and traction current resistors were fitted to the Tube lines terminal stations soon after the disaster, the Surface lines however waited much longer and never had the traction current restrictions installed. BR stations such as Richmond and Wimbledon waited even longer. Still to this day, Olympia is protected by one single 15mph trainstop.
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Jan 23, 2018 13:00:58 GMT
Any reason why not? The line was BR owned but that didn't stop trainstops being fitted elsewhere. As has been mentioned in these pages before, 'Moorgate protection' signalling and traction current resistors were fitted to the Tube lines terminal stations soon after the disaster, the Surface lines however waited much longer and never had the traction current restrictions installed. BR stations such as Richmond and Wimbledon waited even longer. Still to this day, Olympia is protected by one single 15mph trainstop. The three District line stations mentioned are in the open air, as opposed to Moorgate. Could the delay be because, unless the motorman fell ill he/she could see the buffer stops and it was presumed they would brake and stop accordingly? Just a thought.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 23, 2018 14:01:12 GMT
The three District line stations mentioned are in the open air, as opposed to Moorgate. Could the delay be because, unless the motorman fell ill he/she could see the buffer stops and it was presumed they would brake and stop accordingly? Just a thought. I would guess that, plus the less severe consequences of an over-run at those locations, plus the need to co-ordinate with BR's signalling system, were all factors. Are the 313s fitted with tripcocks, or is Moorgate the only deep level terminus on London never to have been fitted with "Moorgate Control"? (The second Morpeth derailment occured because "Morpeth Control", which has an AWS ramp installed on the approach to an abrupt drop in line speed, had only been installed in the northbound approach to the 14-chain (285m) radius right-angle bend after the original derailment occured fifteen years earlier - the stepwise drops in the other direction didn't meet the criteria as none of them individually involved a 33% drop in speed. )
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 23, 2018 15:10:26 GMT
The three District line stations mentioned are in the open air, as opposed to Moorgate. Could the delay be because, unless the motorman fell ill he/she could see the buffer stops and it was presumed they would brake and stop accordingly? Just a thought. I was trying to make the distinction between the Tube lines (Central, Piccadilly, Northern, Bakerloo) and the Surface lines as the Tube line surface terminal stations, Cockfosters, Stanmore, High Barnet, Ealing Broadway (Central), Edgware etc were fitted with Moorgate protection very soon after the disaster, the Surface line stations were not.
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Jan 23, 2018 15:53:49 GMT
The three District line stations mentioned are in the open air, as opposed to Moorgate. Could the delay be because, unless the motorman fell ill he/she could see the buffer stops and it was presumed they would brake and stop accordingly? Just a thought. I was trying to make the distinction between the Tube lines (Central, Piccadilly, Northern, Bakerloo) and the Surface lines as the Tube line surface terminal stations, Cockfosters, Stanmore, High Barnet, Ealing Broadway (Central), Edgware etc were fitted with Moorgate protection very soon after the disaster, the Surface line stations were not. Thank you for the clarification
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 23, 2018 16:17:04 GMT
The reports state that the train was a "new Waratah" train. Altrhough not brand new, the Waratah fleet is (according to Wikipedia) the newest on Sydney's suburban network, being between 3 and 7 years old, with more on order. This one was, according to Wikipedia, No A42 - numerically close to the middle of the 78-strong fleet - so it is presumably about five years old.
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Jan 23, 2018 20:06:51 GMT
Any reason why not? The line was BR owned but that didn't stop trainstops being fitted elsewhere. As has been mentioned in these pages before, 'Moorgate protection' signalling and traction current resistors were fitted to the Tube lines terminal stations soon after the disaster, the Surface lines however waited much longer and never had the traction current restrictions installed. BR stations such as Richmond and Wimbledon waited even longer. Still to this day, Olympia is protected by one single 15mph trainstop. I think the traction current restrictors (resistors) were used as site specific design warranted. If the agreed degree of protection could be provided simply by speed controlled trainstops, that's what was done. I was briefly involved with testing a resistor scheme in maybe 1977/8 at Ealing Broadway with R stock and CO/CP stock. Maybe it wasn't retained, I don't recall. Certainly not one we had to address with the coming of S stock. For those unfamiliar, the idea was that the approach had speed controlled trainstops and the final approach to the stopping position had the traction current supply limited so the train could just maintain enough power to run auxiliaries and to keep moving but not to accelerate substantially towards the buffers. For departure, the current limiting resistor was switched out when the signal cleared. The scheme doesn't work properly with modern traction equipments.
|
|
|
Post by MoreToJack on Jan 24, 2018 2:24:27 GMT
It was very interesting over the weekend observing S7 stock entering Hammersmith (empty) at much higher speeds and with a steeper breaking arc than previously experienced. All part of the testing for ATC - and another feature to disappear as a result.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,767
|
Post by Chris M on Jan 24, 2018 11:27:56 GMT
Does your last comment indicate that the higher entry speeds is a feature that isn't going to be used?
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,196
|
Post by Tom on Jan 24, 2018 19:40:18 GMT
Are the 313s fitted with tripcocks, or is Moorgate the only deep level terminus on London never to have been fitted with "Moorgate Control"? Moorgate was fitted with 'Moorgate control' from reopening in 1976.
|
|
|
Post by notverydeep on Jan 25, 2018 15:31:27 GMT
It seems that the train hit at significant speed, estimated by one witness in the platform as "50 to 70 kilometres an hour" (30-45mph) and that it did not appear to break Pretty amazing that it didn't break after hitting the buffers at that speed. This speed is surely implausible given the (lack of) damage to the front end shown in the news articles? Clearly still nasty - run into a wall at 8 mph and you will injure yourself...
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,767
|
Post by Chris M on Jan 25, 2018 19:36:02 GMT
I think the speed is likely an overestimation but the buffers will have absorbed a lot of the energy, and there will be parts of the train that will be designed to crumple to absorb energy as well, although not the very front as this is the drivers' survival space.
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
|
Post by rincew1nd on Jan 26, 2018 0:56:01 GMT
Does your last comment indicate that the higher entry speeds is a feature that isn't going to be used? I took it to mean that we will no longer have trains creeping into terminal stations.
|
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,744
|
Post by class411 on Jan 26, 2018 8:55:22 GMT
Does your last comment indicate that the higher entry speeds is a feature that isn't going to be used? I took it to mean that we will no longer have trains creeping into terminal stations. When I first started regularly using a terminal station I genuinely thought, on the first couple of occasions that I witnessed a train arriving, that it was being driven by an inexperienced, and thus extra careful, driver!
|
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,744
|
Post by class411 on Jan 26, 2018 9:04:05 GMT
Pretty amazing that it didn't break after hitting the buffers at that speed. This speed is surely implausible given the (lack of) damage to the front end shown in the news articles? Clearly still nasty - run into a wall at 8 mph and you will injure yourself... My comment was a gentle dig about Chris using 'break' instead of 'brake' - only made because of the serendipitous double entendre. As I'm 100% sure he knows the difference, I suspect that this is an example of a phenomenon caused by our brain's ability to 'multi-thread' whereby the bit that knows the differences between homonyms passes off a segment of prose to the bit that is very good at typing but clueless about semantic niceties.
|
|
|
Post by egduf on Jan 26, 2018 12:12:18 GMT
Not terribly relevant to the incident but I have actually been to that Richmond station. Made a point of visiting when I was out in Sydney doing some work for Cityrail many, many years ago. They'd just painted all the lamp posts red in a "NSE" stylee. I see the Oz press don't spare the gore in their reporting. I visited Richmond station once in 1985 when someone dropped me off and I returned to central Sydney. From memory, it was a short trip on a DMU, and I had to change somewhere where the wires stopped. NSW Road deaths this year as a comparison (23 so far)
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 26, 2018 13:00:16 GMT
I visited Richmond station once in 1985 when someone dropped me off and I returned to central Sydney. From memory, it was a short trip on a DMU, and I had to change somewhere where the wires stopped. Wikipedia says the line was electrified as far as Riverstone in 1975, and electrification was extended the last six stops to Richmond in 1991. Between those dates a dmu shuttle ran between Riverstone and Richmond, using the 1920s-vintage "Tin Hares" until 1984.
|
|
|
Post by roboverground on Jan 27, 2018 14:34:01 GMT
With regards to the Richmond(UK) incident - what terminal end protection was in place ?? I seem to recall the 'North London Line' class 313s approaching the platform end with no buffer stop whatsoever ??
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 27, 2018 17:07:57 GMT
With regards to the Richmond(UK) incident - what terminal end protection was in place ?? I seem to recall the 'North London Line' class 313s approaching the platform end with no buffer stop whatsoever ?? very little! perhaps a rotten sleeper strewn across the track, just before the fixed buffers (made-up of more wooden sleepers) at the concourse end.
|
|
|
Post by roboverground on Jan 27, 2018 17:52:17 GMT
|
|