Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 5, 2017 18:47:33 GMT
The RAIB have today published a news story that they are investigating an incident that occurred on London Overground on 7 November 2017 where passengers were de-trained from a failed train about 30 metres before (east of) Peckham Rye station while the third rail was still live. No-one was hurt in the incident. The forum rules regarding serious incidents (section 7.3) will apply to this incident, as the RAIB is investigating (based on the obvious potential for a less fortuitous outcome) so please avoid speculation. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 19:39:33 GMT
The Electricity At Work Regulations 1989 must surely apply to this, regarding safe method of isolation, and Securing the Isolation etc.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 5, 2017 19:44:44 GMT
I read this article on the RAIB website this morning, my initial reaction was a very sharp intake of breath.
Having looked at some pictures online I can now see how the cab steps of a 378 mean that the 3rd rail forms a very nice last step when climbing down. 80 people have been very lucky!
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Post by superteacher on Dec 5, 2017 20:30:51 GMT
Reminds me of the Central line incident many years ago when passengers were detrained onto live track in the Leytonstone area.
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Post by jamesb on Dec 5, 2017 22:07:22 GMT
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 5, 2017 22:13:51 GMT
Do these trains (class 378) not have a detrainment ramp at the front? It may be that detrainment via the cab door was chosen so passengers could egress directly onto a safe walking route to the platform without needing to cross any rails. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 5, 2017 22:23:46 GMT
How long does it take to re-stow the detraining steps?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 5, 2017 23:28:55 GMT
How long does it take to re-stow the detraining steps? I'm sure I've read on here somewhere that either the 378 or S stock steps are a bit tricky to get back in, but I can't remember which or find the relevant thread. |
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Post by dazz285 on Dec 6, 2017 6:56:38 GMT
How long does it take to re-stow the detraining steps? I cannot say for sure how long it takes to put the front steps back but this is an action for Bombardier techs only. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 6, 2017 7:18:02 GMT
How long does it take to re-stow the detraining steps? I cannot say for sure how long it takes to put the front steps back but this is an action for Bombardier techs only. Goodness ! On S Stock deployment and stowing take about the same time, it is almost a reverse of the same procedure. Drivers are expected to do both. This was filmed at Bombardier, LU drivers should not hold the straps when deploying: |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 6, 2017 9:12:47 GMT
What I find most surprising about that report - apart from the fact that anyone thought a large group of passengers alongside live track was a good idea in the first place, was that when the manager realised what was happening his first action was not to go through whatever process was necessary to get the current turned off - NOW.
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Post by John Tuthill on Dec 6, 2017 9:28:55 GMT
What I find most surprising about that report - apart from the fact that anyone thought a large group of passengers alongside live track was a good idea in the first place, was that when the manager realised what was happening his first action was not to go through whatever process was necessary to get the current turned off - NOW. The question begs, the train was not on fire, it wasn't in a tunnel, so why let people off? |
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Post by superteacher on Dec 6, 2017 10:11:17 GMT
What I find most surprising about that report - apart from the fact that anyone thought a large group of passengers alongside live track was a good idea in the first place, was that when the manager realised what was happening his first action was not to go through whatever process was necessary to get the current turned off - NOW. The question begs, the train was not on fire, it wasn't in a tunnel, so why let people off? It’s a good question, but we would be speculating on the reasons why. And speculation goes against our forum rules, so we won’t. We’ve pretty much said all we can in this thread about what we already know, so to prevent speculation it will be locked. When the RAIB provides more info, we will post it on here. Thanks.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 9, 2018 17:00:17 GMT
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Post by goldenarrow on Oct 9, 2018 18:07:20 GMT
The flow charts on pages 13 and 23 demonstrate how the necessary safety protocols have been made more convoluted by the plethora of different companies that were involved and how a mistake in the initial conversation led to an exponential misunderstanding in the chain of response.
The RAIB hasn’t mentioned it explicitly but the undertone of their narrative is quite logical. More cooperation and awareness on the behalf of train operating companies, their staff, their protocols and the infrastructure that they and others work around.
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Post by stapler on Oct 9, 2018 20:43:32 GMT
It's a very good thing that only toffs now wear leather-soled shoes.
And there aren't many toffs on Cl 378s in Sarf London! At least, I haven't seen David Cameron or George Osborne down there lately...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 9, 2018 23:39:21 GMT
The flow charts on pages 13 and 23 demonstrate how the necessary safety protocols have been made more convoluted by the plethora of different companies that were involved and how a mistake in the initial conversation led to an exponential misunderstanding in the chain of response. The RAIB hasn’t mentioned it explicitly but the undertone of their narrative is quite logical. More cooperation and awareness on the behalf of train operating companies, their staff, their protocols and the infrastructure that they and others work around. In addition two other things leap out at me - Nobody seemed to reach a clean understanding with anyone else, or even check whether they had. - Many staff were under-trained for out-of-course events. Lack of practical training/simulations, lack of briefing of technical staff (on their role and in known faults), lack of non-technical skills, lack of track-side safety training for the staff in closest proximity to the track, etc. |
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Post by jamesb on Oct 10, 2018 6:54:29 GMT
The key issue seemed to be communication, but I can't work out if the driver believed that traction current had been discharged or not?
In my mind, as a passenger, if the driver instructs me to detrain, I would hold the driver responsible for ensuring that it was immediately safe for me to do so.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 10, 2018 7:42:40 GMT
I get the impression that the driver did not think specifically about traction current, believing that he would not be instructed to detrain if it was unsafe to do so.
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Post by brigham on Oct 10, 2018 8:00:16 GMT
I believe there was a staff shortage on the train. One man was doing the jobs of two.
There also seems to be no provision for the person in charge of the train to discharge the traction current.
Let's hope we learn from this mercifully-benign incident. It could have been a tragedy.
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Post by brigham on Oct 10, 2018 8:04:27 GMT
It's a very good thing that only toffs now wear leather-soled shoes. I must be a toff! I always use sustainables when I can. (Not sure of the railway relevance here). |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 10, 2018 8:11:47 GMT
It's a very good thing that only toffs now wear leather-soled shoes. And there aren't many toffs on Cl 378s in Sarf London! At least, I haven't seen David Cameron or George Osborne down there lately... You've obviously not been to Peckham Rye recently, it's Hipster Central with flat whites, artisanal bakeries, cycle shops, craft beer pubs and beard oil emporiums. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 10, 2018 8:18:40 GMT
I believe there was a staff shortage on the train. One man was doing the jobs of two. There also seems to be no provision for the person in charge of the train to discharge the traction current. Let's hope we learn from this mercifully-benign incident. It could have been a tragedy. London Overground hasn't had guards since 2014 (the last ones were on the GOBLIN) so if there was a staff shortage there wouldn't have been anyone to drive the train! The driver can discharge the traction current by contacting Network Rail, as a Central Line driver I can discharge traction current on the Network Rail section between North Acton and West Ruislip or West Acton and Ealing Broadway if necessary. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 10, 2018 8:22:08 GMT
The key issue seemed to be communication, but I can't work out if the driver believed that traction current had been discharged or not? In my mind, as a passenger, if the driver instructs me to detrain, I would hold the driver responsible for ensuring that it was immediately safe for me to do so. The driver (or guard) is responsible for passenger safety while they are on the train, once the passengers leave the train their safety is the responsibility of Network Rail which is why a driver cannot detrain without authority. This driver was given authority to detrain so it seems they assumed someone had discharged current. |
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Post by jamesb on Oct 10, 2018 9:50:42 GMT
The key issue seemed to be communication, but I can't work out if the driver believed that traction current had been discharged or not? In my mind, as a passenger, if the driver instructs me to detrain, I would hold the driver responsible for ensuring that it was immediately safe for me to do so. The driver (or guard) is responsible for passenger safety while they are on the train, once the passengers leave the train their safety is the responsibility of Network Rail which is why a driver cannot detrain without authority. This driver was given authority to detrain so it seems they assumed someone had discharged current. Ah, I see. But in the context of a tunnel, unless it was an extreme emergency, wouldn't the driver expect there to be staff in orange jackets meeting him to hand the passengers over to? Surely the driver wouldn't just help them off the train and point them in the right direction to walk up the tunnel without a member of Network Rail staff? Even helping passengers climb down the steps could be a two man job? From reading the report, the (agency) member of staff was on the platform when the detrainment started and went to assist the passengers only when he saw them walking up the track. Does a short-circuiting device exist on National Rail, rather like those on the Underground? |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 10, 2018 10:14:51 GMT
The driver can discharge the traction current by contacting Network Rail, as a Central Line driver I can discharge traction current on the Network Rail section between North Acton and West Ruislip or West Acton and Ealing Broadway if necessary. Sorry for a slightly tangential question. I know NR tracks are close by on those sections but it was my understanding that the alignment, tracks etc used by the Central Line are wholly owned by London Underground as is the traction current supply. I wasn't aware LU drivers could discharge traction current on adjacent NR lines with overhead wires (e.g. Ealing Broadway). There is obviously no traction current on the Chiltern tracks in the Greenford - Ruislip section. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 10, 2018 10:40:32 GMT
Sorry for a slightly tangential question. I know NR tracks are close by on those sections but it was my understanding that the alignment, tracks etc used by the Central Line are wholly owned by London Underground as is the traction current supply. I wasn't aware LU drivers could discharge traction current on adjacent NR lines with overhead wires (e.g. Ealing Broadway). There is obviously no traction current on the Chiltern tracks in the Greenford - Ruislip section. District Line drivers are trained in the emergency discharge of NR traction current at Ealing Broadway, although the Central Line is technically closer. Contact with Electrical Control Room Operator at Slough is necessary. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 10, 2018 10:47:16 GMT
The driver (or guard) is responsible for passenger safety while they are on the train, once the passengers leave the train their safety is the responsibility of Network Rail which is why a driver cannot detrain without authority. This driver was given authority to detrain so it seems they assumed someone had discharged current. Ah, I see. But in the context of a tunnel, unless it was an extreme emergency, wouldn't the driver expect there to be staff in orange jackets meeting him to hand the passengers over to? Surely the driver wouldn't just help them off the train and point them in the right direction to walk up the tunnel without a member of Network Rail staff? Even helping passengers climb down the steps could be a two man job? From reading the report, the (agency) member of staff was on the platform when the detrainment started and went to assist the passengers only when he saw them walking up the track. Does a short-circuiting device exist on National Rail, rather like those on the Underground? National Rail isn't like LUL where all station staff (apart from CS2s) are trained and licenced for track-walking. If the agency staff who work for Govia at Peckham Rye station are anything like those who work for London Overground then they aren't licenced to go trackside and would have to wait on the platform. In all likelihood the only member of staff who would be track licenced would have been the duty station manager who just happened to be at Peckham Rye at the time. Not sure where "the context of a tunnel" is relevant to this incident as this was open section. I think Network Rail does have SCDs but I'm not swearing to it. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 10, 2018 10:55:00 GMT
The driver can discharge the traction current by contacting Network Rail, as a Central Line driver I can discharge traction current on the Network Rail section between North Acton and West Ruislip or West Acton and Ealing Broadway if necessary. Sorry for a slightly tangential question. I know NR tracks are close by on those sections but it was my understanding that the alignment, tracks etc used by the Central Line are wholly owned by London Underground as is the traction current supply. I wasn't aware LU drivers could discharge traction current on adjacent NR lines with overhead wires (e.g. Ealing Broadway). There is obviously no traction current on the Chiltern tracks in the Greenford - Ruislip section. Yeah I just remembered North Acton to West Ruislip isn't electrified. As the Central Line has "parallel running" with Network Rail track the drivers are trained on Network Rail procedures. as are drivers on the Bakerloo and District where they also use Network Rail track. Discharging traction current is part of our training, as is the use of signal clips and detonators which are in our emergency equipment locker in the cab. |
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Post by greggygreggygreg on Oct 10, 2018 11:26:29 GMT
Ah, I see. But in the context of a tunnel, unless it was an extreme emergency, wouldn't the driver expect there to be staff in orange jackets meeting him to hand the passengers over to? Surely the driver wouldn't just help them off the train and point them in the right direction to walk up the tunnel without a member of Network Rail staff? Even helping passengers climb down the steps could be a two man job? From reading the report, the (agency) member of staff was on the platform when the detrainment started and went to assist the passengers only when he saw them walking up the track. Does a short-circuiting device exist on National Rail, rather like those on the Underground? National Rail isn't like LUL where all station staff (apart from CS2s) are trained and licenced for track-walking. If the agency staff who work for Govia at Peckham Rye station are anything like those who work for London Overground then they aren't licenced to go trackside and would have to wait on the platform. In all likelihood the only member of staff who would be track licenced would have been the duty station manager who just happened to be at Peckham Rye at the time. Not sure where "the context of a tunnel" is relevant to this incident as this was open section. I think Network Rail does have SCDs but I'm not swearing to it. The only station staff who are track safety trained are those who split and attach trains. Not even station managers are track safety trained on National Rail. |
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