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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 29, 2017 4:12:00 GMT
I saw this on the Evening Standard website www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/mind-the-doors-tube-driver-caught-running-train-with-cabin-wide-open-a3526281.htmlI don't know if it also appeared in the print edition yesterday as I'm on annual leave this week. Here's what I wrote to the letters page, don't know if they'll publish it..... I was amused reading your article about “the extraordinary moment” when someone saw a Tube train being driven with the cab door open because there's nothing extraordinary about it, it happens all the time. Your “senior Tube source” is completely misinformed, there is nothing in the “regulations” that forbids driving with the cab door open, in my 20 years working on the Tube I've never head of a single incident where anyone has fallen out of the cab door while driving and even if they did the emergency brake would activate the moment the deadman's handle was released.
Your source is also confused about the safety feature that prevents Central Line trains being driven with the cab door open, that only applies when the train is using Automatic Train Operation not when it is being driven manually. The override switch they refer to allows a train to be moved if we are unable to close one or more of the passenger doors, if that switch is operated then the train has to be taken out of passenger service and driven empty to the depot.
While we do have some bumpy track – especially up towards the end of the Epping branch - it wouldn't be allowed to deteriorate to the state where it could possibly throw someone out of their seat as it would be a safety hazard to passengers as much as for staff. If necessary a temporary speed restriction will be imposed to avoid uncomfortable rides. The track is inspected regularly by maintenance staff and if the drivers feel its in poor condition they are only too willing to complain about it to management
Safety is paramount on the Tube as it is on every other railway, if driving a train with the cab door open were a safety issue then both management and the unions would have stopped us doing so but in my 15 years of driving on the Central Line the issue has never been raised.
ASLEF shrugged, Train Crew Accommodation Building. Leytonstone Station, Church Lane, London, E11 1HE.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 29, 2017 6:37:04 GMT
It did appear in the print edition.
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Post by brigham on Apr 29, 2017 7:26:46 GMT
I wonder if a correction will appear in the next issue.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 7:35:22 GMT
Very well said Mr Shrugged. And indeed it was in the print edition as it was plastered all over the mess room at White City
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class411
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Post by class411 on Apr 29, 2017 7:45:26 GMT
These idiots must be completely out of touch with reality.
I couldn't count the number of times I've seen trains operated with the driver's door open.
It beggars belief that no one from the busybody with the camera, through the ninny that wrote the piece. to the editor that allowed it to deface his publication, was aware of the fact that it is quite a common occurrence in hot weather.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 29, 2017 8:06:55 GMT
These idiots must be completely out of touch with reality. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen trains operated with the driver's door open. It beggars belief that no one from the busybody with the camera, through the ninny that wrote the piece. to the editor that allowed it to deface his publication, was aware of the fact that it is quite a common occurrence in hot weather. I haven't bought a UK paper in years and this eloquent statement by 411 just reinforces my feeling that my judgement was correct.
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Post by abe on Apr 29, 2017 8:22:14 GMT
Well, the Standard's "transport" correspondent, Dick Murray (who co-wrote the article), has demonstrated many times that what he knows about the Underground could comfortably be written on the back of a postage stamp...
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Post by superteacher on Apr 29, 2017 8:22:55 GMT
Hopeless journalism!
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 29, 2017 10:03:30 GMT
These idiots must be completely out of touch with reality. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen trains operated with the driver's door open. It beggars belief that no one from the busybody with the camera, through the ninny that wrote the piece. to the editor that allowed it to deface his publication, was aware of the fact that it is quite a common occurrence in hot weather. I haven't bought a UK paper in years and this eloquent statement by 411 just reinforces my feeling that my judgement was correct. except of course that the Standard is a freesheet
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Apr 29, 2017 10:06:35 GMT
I saw this on the Evening Standard website www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/mind-the-doors-tube-driver-caught-running-train-with-cabin-wide-open-a3526281.htmlI don't know if it also appeared in the print edition yesterday as I'm on annual leave this week. Here's what I wrote to the letters page, don't know if they'll publish it..... I was amused reading your article about “the extraordinary moment” when someone saw a Tube train being driven with the cab door open because there's nothing extraordinary about it, it happens all the time. Your “senior Tube source” is completely misinformed, there is nothing in the “regulations” that forbids driving with the cab door open, in my 20 years working on the Tube I've never head of a single incident where anyone has fallen out of the cab door while driving and even if they did the emergency brake would activate the moment the deadman's handle was released.
Your source is also confused about the safety feature that prevents Central Line trains being driven with the cab door open, that only applies when the train is using Automatic Train Operation not when it is being driven manually. The override switch they refer to allows a train to be moved if we are unable to close one or more of the passenger doors, if that switch is operated then the train has to be taken out of passenger service and driven empty to the depot.
While we do have some bumpy track – especially up towards the end of the Epping branch - it wouldn't be allowed to deteriorate to the state where it could possibly throw someone out of their seat as it would be a safety hazard to passengers as much as for staff. If necessary a temporary speed restriction will be imposed to avoid uncomfortable rides. The track is inspected regularly by maintenance staff and if the drivers feel its in poor condition they are only too willing to complain about it to management
Safety is paramount on the Tube as it is on every other railway, if driving a train with the cab door open were a safety issue then both management and the unions would have stopped us doing so but in my 15 years of driving on the Central Line the issue has never been raised.
ASLEF shrugged, Train Crew Accommodation Building. Leytonstone Station, Church Lane, London, E11 1HE.What a total load of rubbish from the Evening Standard, and I find it amazing how some people have nothing better to do with their time than try and get other people into trouble. Having the door open is a bit of a grey area. There's nothing written down either way that explicitly allows or forbids it, however 'custom and practice' is that it happens. One has to balance the benefits to alertness of the driver getting fresh air against the very small risk of something going wrong. I'd definitely say alertness wins out, and it seems LU agree. The alternative is we could have trains withdrawn from service every time the air conditioning is not working effectively - maybe the Evening Standard would prefer that? In any case fresh air is often much better than air conditioning. As regards what would happen in the extremely unlikely event that the driver did fall out. A train can't be operated in ATO with the cab door open, so the train would have to be in CM or PM. Therefore the moment the driver's hand leaves the handle the deadman device will operate, the train will be brought to a stand, and an alarm would be sent to the control room within 2 minutes. There are established procedures to follow on from that. Now perhaps the Evening Standard might like to go and find something that's actually newsworthy to report on, as opposed to alarmist troublemaking rubbish? If the informant genuinely finds this 'shocking' then he's led a very sheltered life. He would probably shocked to find that less than 20 years ago guards used to routinely hang out of saloon doors whilst the train was moving as part of their duties, separated from passengers by just a thin metal bar. And, guess what, sometimes guards used to keep the doors open in the open-air sections for extra ventilation, which I'm sure many passengers appreciated on hot days.
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Post by up1989 on Apr 29, 2017 10:14:34 GMT
I was told whilst on my training as a train op that driving with the cab door was ok as long as it was the offside (opposite side to the driver). It seems that this story wasn't researched at all. I hear on the pic that it is a rarity to find the cab door interlock switch to be in the normal position!
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Apr 29, 2017 10:29:26 GMT
I find it shocking the driver did this, the weather was pretty darn cold!!!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 29, 2017 11:09:30 GMT
I find it shocking the driver did this, the weather was pretty darn cold!!! Maybe he found someone slumped by the J Door wearing "Eau de Tramp" when he changed ends at Ealing Broadway or West Ruislip and he was driving with the door open until the cab became slightly less "fragrant".......
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 29, 2017 11:15:06 GMT
I was told whilst on my training as a train op that driving with the cab door was ok as long as it was the offside (opposite side to the driver). It seems that this story wasn't researched at all. I hear on the pic that it is a rarity to find the cab door interlock switch to be in the normal position! The problem with having the offside door open is that if that's the platform side anyone (and I'm thinking drunks) can get in the cab. The 1992s don't have cab door interlock switches, indeed as I've never driven on other Lines (apart from the W&C) I didn't even know they existed.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Apr 29, 2017 12:41:57 GMT
"When shown the picture by the Standard, commuters at nearby Ealing Broadway station expressed fears over potential safety risks.
Student James Price, 20, said: “You don’t expect that type of thing to be possible, especially because there are so many people on a train. It seems like a massive hazard.”"
I wasn't aware that passengers regularly travelled in the cab...
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class411
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Post by class411 on Apr 29, 2017 13:02:10 GMT
"When shown the picture by the Standard, commuters at nearby Ealing Broadway station expressed fears over potential safety risks. Student James Price, 20, said: “You don’t expect that type of thing to be possible, especially because there are so many people on a train. It seems like a massive hazard.”" I wasn't aware that passengers regularly travelled in the cab... I think his point was that with so many people on a train the drivers shouldn't be taking risks. (Implying perhaps that he thinks it would be OK to be taking risks if the train only has a few people on it. ) What does not seem to have occurred to the little muppet is that if passengers can regularly travel standing up without being hurled into the laps of their sitting comrades, the chances of a securely seated driver being involuntarily detrained are virtually (if not actually) nil. That's without even considering the dead man's handle. (Stupid name as it's the thing live men and women use to drive our trains.)
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Post by drainrat on Apr 29, 2017 13:14:41 GMT
Would this be what Mr Trump refers to as 'Fake News'?
Nice work MB
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Post by drainrat on Apr 29, 2017 13:31:09 GMT
I saw this on the Evening Standard website www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/mind-the-doors-tube-driver-caught-running-train-with-cabin-wide-open-a3526281.htmlI don't know if it also appeared in the print edition yesterday as I'm on annual leave this week. Here's what I wrote to the letters page, don't know if they'll publish it..... I was amused reading your article about “the extraordinary moment” when someone saw a Tube train being driven with the cab door open because there's nothing extraordinary about it, it happens all the time. Your “senior Tube source” is completely misinformed, there is nothing in the “regulations” that forbids driving with the cab door open, in my 20 years working on the Tube I've never head of a single incident where anyone has fallen out of the cab door while driving and even if they did the emergency brake would activate the moment the deadman's handle was released.
Was words like 'Epic', 'Immense' and 'Shocking' etc. also used? seems to be modus operaandii by the fake mainstream media today.
I remember refusing Richard 'Cranium' Murray entry to cab on Jube back when the underground were worried he'd write some strong words about them over the delayed opening of the Jubilee line extension in 99. I reckon the playground banter must've gone along the lines of:
DM: "Why ain't the Jube ext finished?" LUL: "we need to do extensive testing!" DM: "I bet you can't even run trains on it now" LUL: "Oh yes we can!" DM: "Oh no you can't!" LUL: "Oh yes we can!"
LUL (to Drainrat): "Drainrat, can you take DM in the cab and drive it to Waterloo please?" Drainrat: "No!"
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 29, 2017 13:33:51 GMT
In the good old days the Standard would have talked to the LUL Press Office where an experienced hand would have convinced them it wasn't a story.
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Post by drainrat on Apr 29, 2017 13:36:10 GMT
Well, the Standard's "transport" correspondent, Dick Murray (who co-wrote the article), has demonstrated many times that what he knows about the Underground could comfortably be written on the back of a postage stamp...
The trouble lies with most people believing that what he says is fact, even when informed of the opposite by someone who actually knows.
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Post by up1989 on Apr 29, 2017 14:16:08 GMT
I was told whilst on my training as a train op that driving with the cab door was ok as long as it was the offside (opposite side to the driver). It seems that this story wasn't researched at all. I hear on the pic that it is a rarity to find the cab door interlock switch to be in the normal position! The problem with having the offside door open is that if that's the platform side anyone (and I'm thinking drunks) can get in the cab. The 1992s don't have cab door interlock switches, indeed as I've never driven on other Lines (apart from the W&C) I didn't even know they existed. I never knew the 92 ts didn't have interlock cutouts. The 95 and 73's do and I'm assuming the 96's will have it due to being similar in design to the 95's, I'm not sure about the s stock or 09's, and obviously the 72's wouldn't need it due to not having side cab doors!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 29, 2017 14:57:03 GMT
The 1992s have interlock cutouts for the saloon doors, if operated then we go out of service to the depot with a member of station staff in the car/cars where we have door problems but we don't have interlock cutouts for the cab. We can drive with the cab door open in manual but in ATO all doors have to be closed
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 16:45:53 GMT
I thought that the Cab Door Interlock switch was only relevant if the train was running in automatic mode, otherwise it serves no function. When Driving Manually, as in the case of the Central Line operator, it has been normal to open the cab door in hot weather to allow for good air circulation in case of need, it happened on the 1973 stock and others.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 29, 2017 16:49:12 GMT
Perhaps they had the right idea with 67 stock - no cab doors
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Post by superteacher on Apr 29, 2017 16:52:59 GMT
Perhaps they had the right idea with 67 stock - no cab doors Having no cab doors on the 67's was a real pain when there was a need to change drivers, as they sometimes had to fight their way through a packed front carriage.
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Post by PiccNT on Apr 29, 2017 17:14:56 GMT
I was told whilst on my training as a train op that driving with the cab door was ok as long as it was the offside (opposite side to the driver). It seems that this story wasn't researched at all. I hear on the pic that it is a rarity to find the cab door interlock switch to be in the normal position! The problem with having the offside door open is that if that's the platform side anyone (and I'm thinking drunks) can get in the cab. The 1992s don't have cab door interlock switches, indeed as I've never driven on other Lines (apart from the W&C) I didn't even know they existed. Yes, a constant cause of "No movement" when you take the train over and leave the cab door open. Some idiot has cut the interlock back in!
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Post by Chris W on Apr 29, 2017 19:10:26 GMT
There's a reason why this free publication (they can't even sell it now) is referred to by many as the Evening subStandard... If anyone questions why, this is the perfect example
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 29, 2017 19:18:02 GMT
I haven't bought a UK paper in years and this eloquent statement by 411 just reinforces my feeling that my judgement was correct. except of course that the Standard is a freesheet I'd no idea! Fortunately I've never read that publication either, free or otherwise!
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Post by bruce on Apr 29, 2017 21:10:15 GMT
I stopped reading the "press" after the Hillsborough disaster.
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Post by drainrat on Apr 29, 2017 21:16:04 GMT
The problem with having the offside door open is that if that's the platform side anyone (and I'm thinking drunks) can get in the cab. The 1992s don't have cab door interlock switches, indeed as I've never driven on other Lines (apart from the W&C) I didn't even know they existed. I never knew the 92 ts didn't have interlock cutouts. The 95 and 73's do and I'm assuming the 96's will have it due to being similar in design to the 95's, I'm not sure about the s stock or 09's, and obviously the 72's wouldn't need it due to not having side cab doors! I'm sure the 96 can (could) be driven manually without the need to cut anything out. The 72s (yes, I drove them too) had droplight cut out switch, to be able to drive with the windows down, on account of an Elephant driver head butting the signal plate as he came out of tunnel on approach to Queens pk in 1997 🙄
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