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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 18:33:29 GMT
<<split from Methods used by staff to pass station ticket barriers --MoreToJack>>I remember those plastic staff cards, they looked like a paper travelcard, but were printed on durable plastic, and were inserted carefully unto the ticket slot in order to work the gate. They had a Valid To Date printed on the face, with a space for the Authorised User's Name. I was thinking would all staff get ITSO cards from now on, once the ITSO card becomes the standard travelcard on the LUL and National Rail Lines?
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Post by MoreToJack on Feb 25, 2017 18:40:49 GMT
ITSO is unlikely to be adopted as the standard for Oyster. As such, staff will continue to have a staff Oyster card. As mentioned, staff passes are not valid on non-TfL services, so there'd be no benefits to issuing them on Oyster. They also don't seek to create logical journeys in the same way a normal Oyster will - they literally just tell the gate to open. It's worth mentioning that all TfL staff get the light blue staff pass, as well as a dark green nominee pass for their spouse. This pass has the same validity as a staff pass, but does not work on the same gate multiple times - in other words, it does look to create logical journeys. Bus drivers have their own version of the staff (and nominee) pass - I believe this gives free travel on all TfL services but *not* the NR routes also covered. I'm not 100% sure, but I have no doubts that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Outside of TfL land, there's a lot of differentiation between TOCs and what they issue their staff. Some (such as GWR) still issue the plastic magnetic passes, others (c2c are one I believe) issue them on the same style of ITSO card as issued to customers. This is the railway industry, don't expect any sort of coherency! This is what the 'original' Oyster staff pass looked like, too (plus an accompanying photocard) - the latest version has a white roundel.  |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 25, 2017 19:49:06 GMT
Outside of TfL land, there's a lot of differentiation between TOCs and what they issue their staff. Some (such as GWR) still issue the plastic magnetic passes, others (c2c are one I believe) issue them on the same style of ITSO card as issued to customers. This is the railway industry, don't expect any sort of coherency! I think a lot depends on the owning company of the TOC, a friend who drives for Cross Country has just gained free travel across the North as both are franchises controlled by Arriva/DB. Not sure what actual 'travel authority' he has though. Anyway, I drift. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 25, 2017 23:35:39 GMT
I remember those plastic staff cards, they looked like a paper travelcard, but were printed on durable plastic, and were inserted carefully unto the ticket slot in order to work the gate. They had a Valid To Date printed on the face, with a space for the Authorised User's Name. I was thinking would all staff get ITSO cards from now on, once the ITSO card becomes the standard travelcard on the LUL and National Rail Lines? ITSO is a disaster. There is no reason on earth that TfL would adopt it. TfL only modified its system to read and process ITSO because the DfT demanded it and funded it. I understand the "lack of enthusiasm" around delivering the ITSO compatibility was palpable on the TfL side of things. National Rail and the DfT have no idea what they're doing with fares and ticketing. They have no strategic direction and are struggling to cope with the pace of technological development. TfL at least seem to have a clue and have managed to keep Oyster relevant while bolting on "open platform" contactless card acceptance. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Feb 26, 2017 14:04:43 GMT
From the sound of things, it looks like Weekly Capping will only ever be available to Credit Worthy Customers who qualify for A Contactless Bank Card, be it a Debit or Credit function. The Weekly Capping on Oyster project has been scrapped now due to Brexit, as one member of gateline staff told a customer. (Correct me if I am wrong on the Brexit point). Complete nonsense. |
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Feb 26, 2017 14:09:11 GMT
For the second time in 10 minutes, kkc35348 blames Brexit for something.
Surely, this is meant to be a non-political forum?
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Post by snoggle on Feb 26, 2017 14:27:50 GMT
From the sound of things, it looks like Weekly Capping will only ever be available to Credit Worthy Customers who qualify for A Contactless Bank Card, be it a Debit or Credit function. The Weekly Capping on Oyster project has been scrapped now due to Brexit, as one member of gateline staff told a customer. (Correct me if I am wrong on the Brexit point). { deep breath } I have read two reports recently that say that weekly capping on Oyster is due late this year / early next. One of the reports comes from Deputy Mayor for Transport, Val Shawcross. She is not going to make a public statement like that if the project was to be cancelled. I am also confident that she has been deeply involved in understanding the revised TfL budget and business plan and that the Oyster works are funded. TfL will wish to get the new Oyster App, now on customer trial, bedded down and working before the next iteration of the Future Ticketing Project hits the streets. The Mayor of London and TfL have both stated clearly that the TfL Budget has not been affected by Brexit nor have City Hall or TfL reached a view on how the TfL budget may be affected. Therefore "Mr Gateline person" is talking nonsense. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 26, 2017 15:49:22 GMT
Therefore "Mr Gateline person" is talking nonsense. To be pedantic, it could be Ms Gateline person who is talking nonsense as @kkc35348 didn't specify. |
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Post by superteacher on Feb 26, 2017 16:15:21 GMT
For the second time in 10 minutes, kkc35348 blames Brexit for something. Surely, this is meant to be a non-political forum?
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Post by superteacher on Feb 26, 2017 18:33:37 GMT
From the sound of things, it looks like Weekly Capping will only ever be available to Credit Worthy Customers who qualify for A Contactless Bank Card, be it a Debit or Credit function. The Weekly Capping on Oyster project has been scrapped now due to Brexit, as one member of gateline staff told a customer. (Correct me if I am wrong on the Brexit point). Are you able to substantiate this claim, as having spoken to others, it seems to be completely untrue. |
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Feb 26, 2017 18:39:31 GMT
@ superteacher > > Yes
Not having politics on the forum is surely something to be upheld
But 2 x blatant porkies is something else
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 18:41:16 GMT
It was just plain speculation, as the Weekly Capping on Oyster was planned to come in during 2016.
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Post by phil on Feb 26, 2017 18:49:01 GMT
I remember those plastic staff cards, they looked like a paper travelcard, but were printed on durable plastic, and were inserted carefully unto the ticket slot in order to work the gate. They had a Valid To Date printed on the face, with a space for the Authorised User's Name. I was thinking would all staff get ITSO cards from now on, once the ITSO card becomes the standard travelcard on the LUL and National Rail Lines? ITSO is a disaster. There is no reason on earth that TfL would adopt it. TfL only modified its system to read and process ITSO because the DfT demanded it and funded it. I understand the "lack of enthusiasm" around delivering the ITSO compatibility was palpable on the TfL side of things. National Rail and the DfT have no idea what they're doing with fares and ticketing. They have no strategic direction and are struggling to cope with the pace of technological development. TfL at least seem to have a clue and have managed to keep Oyster relevant while bolting on "open platform" contactless card acceptance. Its not that 'TfL have a clue' but rather a reflection on the fact that TfL is still very much like the old BR - who had they remained as the body handling National Rail ticketing, fares, and even letting out franchises, would have had the necessary clout to standardise on a single smartcard product. Instead BR was smashed up into tiny bits specifically to flog as much off to the private sector to take advantage of the 'power of the free market' Thus when comparing the lack of progress with respect to ITSO you need to consider.... Firstly,that TfL specifically retain all revenue risk etc - where as the DfT likes to try and offload that onto TOCs during the franchise process. Thus it is quite clearly TfLs responsibility to come up with its own Smartcard product and keep it up to date as it directly impacts revenues where as on the national rail network that responsibility has been split with neither the DfT nor franchises having a decisive say. Secondly Oyster is not cheap to maintain - all that back office stuff to make it as easy as possible for the user costs lots of money to run - even more so given the need to update it to keep pace with the rapid changes in technology since it was first introduced. As such no TOC is going to invest in a smartcard scheme unless it gets incentivised to do it by the DfT either by being directly paid to or as a requirement of winning a franchise. Thirdly because TfL run or let concessions to cover a wide variety of transport, they are ideally placed to develop one smartcard system covering all operations. For example Oyster enabled the bus network to go cashless - which obviously generated savings that could be used to offset the costs of running Oyster. By contrast the DfT have no say in bus operations and when it comes to TOCs they are hamstrung by the political ideology that says ticketing matters should be left to operators (who supposedly ware far better at giving their consumers what they want - despite rail travel being nothing like selling detergent , electricity or car insurance) and not micromanaged by Whitehall Fourthly, and perhaps most importantly TfL have the security that they will not be chucked out after 7 years and replaced by someone else. Its a fact that railways are long term things and the obsession by the inhabitants of Whitehall for short (7-10 year) franchises plays havoc with those actually trying to plan things that will last for at least 20 years - be it rolling stock, resignalling, electrification or ticketing. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Feb 26, 2017 18:50:13 GMT
It was just plain speculation, as the Weekly Capping on Oyster was planned to come in during 2016.
Edit:  .....and I don't take kindly to a like being issued by a forum member to his own reprimand. A tad sarcastic and a very bad move........ |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 19:35:12 GMT
Oops - hit the wrong button - having a very bad day.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 19:37:46 GMT
Mods - it may be safest just to Delete this Thread entirely - the whole lot.
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Post by superteacher on Feb 26, 2017 19:53:58 GMT
Mods - it may be safest just to Delete this Thread entirely - the whole lot.
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Post by rummer on Feb 26, 2017 20:49:43 GMT
Mmmmm this thread has gone off topic I think
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Post by superteacher on Feb 26, 2017 20:54:22 GMT
Mmmmm this thread has gone off topic I think
On we go . . .
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Post by 35b on Feb 26, 2017 20:56:29 GMT
ITSO is a disaster. There is no reason on earth that TfL would adopt it. TfL only modified its system to read and process ITSO because the DfT demanded it and funded it. I understand the "lack of enthusiasm" around delivering the ITSO compatibility was palpable on the TfL side of things. National Rail and the DfT have no idea what they're doing with fares and ticketing. They have no strategic direction and are struggling to cope with the pace of technological development. TfL at least seem to have a clue and have managed to keep Oyster relevant while bolting on "open platform" contactless card acceptance. Its not that 'TfL have a clue' but rather a reflection on the fact that TfL is still very much like the old BR - who had they remained as the body handling National Rail ticketing, fares, and even letting out franchises, would have had the necessary clout to standardise on a single smartcard product. Instead BR was smashed up into tiny bits specifically to flog as much off to the private sector to take advantage of the 'power of the free market' Thus when comparing the lack of progress with respect to ITSO you need to consider.... Firstly,that TfL specifically retain all revenue risk etc - where as the DfT likes to try and offload that onto TOCs during the franchise process. Thus it is quite clearly TfLs responsibility to come up with its own Smartcard product and keep it up to date as it directly impacts revenues where as on the national rail network that responsibility has been split with neither the DfT nor franchises having a decisive say. Secondly Oyster is not cheap to maintain - all that back office stuff to make it as easy as possible for the user costs lots of money to run - even more so given the need to update it to keep pace with the rapid changes in technology since it was first introduced. As such no TOC is going to invest in a smartcard scheme unless it gets incentivised to do it by the DfT either by being directly paid to or as a requirement of winning a franchise. Thirdly because TfL run or let concessions to cover a wide variety of transport, they are ideally placed to develop one smartcard system covering all operations. For example Oyster enabled the bus network to go cashless - which obviously generated savings that could be used to offset the costs of running Oyster. By contrast the DfT have no say in bus operations and when it comes to TOCs they are hamstrung by the political ideology that says ticketing matters should be left to operators (who supposedly ware far better at giving their consumers what they want - despite rail travel being nothing like selling detergent , electricity or car insurance) and not micromanaged by Whitehall Fourthly, and perhaps most importantly TfL have the security that they will not be chucked out after 7 years and replaced by someone else. Its a fact that railways are long term things and the obsession by the inhabitants of Whitehall for short (7-10 year) franchises plays havoc with those actually trying to plan things that will last for at least 20 years - be it rolling stock, resignalling, electrification or ticketing. Sorry, but I have to disagree on DfT. They let the franchises, they exert microscopic control over franchises. If they had the desire and ability, they would have been able to make ITSO work. |
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Post by phil on Feb 26, 2017 22:28:36 GMT
Sorry, but I have to disagree on DfT. They let the franchises, they exert microscopic control over franchises. If they had the desire and ability, they would have been able to make ITSO work. But they claim they don't - which is the point. Practically every single railwayman knows the DfT are telling massive fibs - but as far as the public are concerned the DfT take a very much hands off approch (hence the pretence that the Southern dispute is nothing to do with Government and is simply a matter between the Unions and Southern). So yes, if the DfT really they wanted to they could have pushed / driven ITSO and made it work - but as I said the official position / ideology is that such things are best left to the private sector. Oyster was only was a success because TfL pushed it across ALL their services and have also continued to invest in the back office infrastructure necessary - if TfL adopted the same stance / ideology as the DfT then it would be left to each service group to organise their own variant at a pace that suited them and Oyster would not be the sucess it is. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 26, 2017 22:34:09 GMT
ITSO is a disaster. There is no reason on earth that TfL would adopt it. TfL only modified its system to read and process ITSO because the DfT demanded it and funded it. I understand the "lack of enthusiasm" around delivering the ITSO compatibility was palpable on the TfL side of things. National Rail and the DfT have no idea what they're doing with fares and ticketing. They have no strategic direction and are struggling to cope with the pace of technological development. TfL at least seem to have a clue and have managed to keep Oyster relevant while bolting on "open platform" contactless card acceptance. Its not that 'TfL have a clue' but rather a reflection on the fact that TfL is still very much like the old BR - who had they remained as the body handling National Rail ticketing, fares, and even letting out franchises, would have had the necessary clout to standardise on a single smartcard product. Instead BR was smashed up into tiny bits specifically to flog as much off to the private sector to take advantage of the 'power of the free market' Thus when comparing the lack of progress with respect to ITSO you need to consider.... Firstly,that TfL specifically retain all revenue risk etc - where as the DfT likes to try and offload that onto TOCs during the franchise process. Thus it is quite clearly TfLs responsibility to come up with its own Smartcard product and keep it up to date as it directly impacts revenues where as on the national rail network that responsibility has been split with neither the DfT nor franchises having a decisive say. Secondly Oyster is not cheap to maintain - all that back office stuff to make it as easy as possible for the user costs lots of money to run - even more so given the need to update it to keep pace with the rapid changes in technology since it was first introduced. As such no TOC is going to invest in a smartcard scheme unless it gets incentivised to do it by the DfT either by being directly paid to or as a requirement of winning a franchise. Thirdly because TfL run or let concessions to cover a wide variety of transport, they are ideally placed to develop one smartcard system covering all operations. For example Oyster enabled the bus network to go cashless - which obviously generated savings that could be used to offset the costs of running Oyster. By contrast the DfT have no say in bus operations and when it comes to TOCs they are hamstrung by the political ideology that says ticketing matters should be left to operators (who supposedly ware far better at giving their consumers what they want - despite rail travel being nothing like selling detergent , electricity or car insurance) and not micromanaged by Whitehall Fourthly, and perhaps most importantly TfL have the security that they will not be chucked out after 7 years and replaced by someone else. Its a fact that railways are long term things and the obsession by the inhabitants of Whitehall for short (7-10 year) franchises plays havoc with those actually trying to plan things that will last for at least 20 years - be it rolling stock, resignalling, electrification or ticketing. I agree with the broad thrust of your remarks but disagree on several bits of detail. I was one of the people who invented Oyster. I was the client for smart ticketing for several years even if TfL have conveniently decided there is no history prior to 2003 when Oyster launched - apparently at Ken Livingstone's behest. The aim was to deliver a convenient product for passengers. It has grown and gone on to do things that were not envisaged back then. I had years of discussions with ATOC and the relevant "schemes" about smart ticketing. They simply didn't believe LU (later TfL) would ever implement smart ticketing. Unfortunately for them people after my time on the team did deliver. A lot of the people back then were ex BR and simply wouldn't / couldn't engage in such a large technological change. A couple of TOCs (C2C and Virgin) could see some opportunities but they had no ability to sway their more reluctant colleagues in other TOCs. Oyster is much cheaper to run now than it was. Yes there is still a cost but it has pulled in massive amounts of revenue by giving people convenient, easy to use tickets. It has allowed TfL to strip out costs in a way that TOCs can only dream of. The TOCs were perfectly happy for the Mayor of London to pay for Oyster on National Rail and then reap tens of millions of additional off peak revenue (source - S Verma of TfL speaking to the London Assembly). Definitely a case of "cake and eat it" so far as the TOCs are concerned. I agree TfL can take a wider view and are required to. There is is nothing to stop DfT doing the same *if* they could be bothered or had the requisite expertise. The fact they abandoned "South East Flexible Ticketing" says it all to me. We get endless announcements about "simplication" or "smart ticketing" but very little of any great substance ever happens. The implementation of ITSO on NR is very poor and generally badly promoted. The TOCs have no "incentive" to take on ITSO. They only did it if they are "obliged" to do so and are fully funded. Their approach is "zero risk". The other thing they seem reasonably willing to use of their own volition is the Internet to try to shift ticket sales. This is presumably because they can partly or largely offset any risk around the provision of that facility to other parties. That's in line with their "asset lite" company structure. I would love to have a National Rail ITSO card that could work nationwide. If it could combine PAYG, longer distance / Rover ticket products it would be marvellous. I have that with an Oyster Card that can be used on NR in Greater London (plus extensions). To me it's a no brainer but clearly it's beyond the wit of others. |
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Post by grahamhewett on Feb 26, 2017 23:05:45 GMT
It was just plain speculation, as the Weekly Capping on Oyster was planned to come in during 2016. One of the very first things that budding scientists, lawyers, historians and analysts are taught - usually well before GCSE - is that just because event B follows event A, it doesn't mean that B depends in any way on A... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 23:20:07 GMT
It was just plain speculation, as the Weekly Capping on Oyster was planned to come in during 2016. One of the very first things that budding scientists, lawyers, historians and analysts are taught - usually well before GCSE - is that just because event B follows event A, it doesn't mean that B depends in any way on A...
This whole thread will certainly not be taken down because of the mistake of one user, but if we can't get back on track it may have to be locked and nobody wants to see that. |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 27, 2017 11:34:13 GMT
Well I have a question that is exactly on thread.
There was talk of Oyster being migrated (if that is the right word) to back office at the same time as the January 2018 fares revision.
Is this still the plan?
As for ITSO, I would like to see PAYG compatibility nationwide, especially for urban journeys. I suspect though that this will end up happening through contactless and other compatible RFID 'solutions' instead, which is not the same - because they require people to have bank accounts and not everyone is eligible for a bank account. I would like to see crypto-currencies accepted as valid payments too.
As for general railway ticketing, I am concerned that the recent talk about changes to simplify mainline fares is not just about the headline stated aim but also about trying to end split ticketing. This would be because split ticketing is seen as undercutting fares - and hence income.
This would affect London passengers who have Travelcard season tickets (which typically are on Oyster cards) and buy 'boundary' add-on tickets for portions of journeys outside of the London zones. If split ticketing was banned and all other ticketing was placed on ITSO smartcards it could mean that passengers who (to reduce travel costs) still followed the split ticket solution would need two smartcards and have to alight at boundary stations to touch-out and then touch-in. This already happens to passengers who use Oyster PAYG! Holland makes for an excellent example of a nation which has embraced smartcards where this scenario already applies.
Simon
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 27, 2017 13:52:15 GMT
Difficult to see how split ticketing would work with smart cards anyway, but most splits involve advance fares rather than PAYG.
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Post by grahamhewett on Feb 27, 2017 18:46:18 GMT
spsmiler -it's difficult to see how you could eliminate split ticketing, especially with advance purchases - simply order the two legs in advance; provided the train stopped at the join (another issue,ofcourse),who would know you hadn't boarded the train anew?
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Post by snoggle on Feb 27, 2017 22:26:03 GMT
Well I have a question that is exactly on thread. There was talk of Oyster being migrated (if that is the right word) to back office at the same time as the January 2018 fares revision. Is this still the plan? On the basis that Oyster transactions will need to be routed via the "back office system" to activate weekly capping then yes, based on recent statements, the system will have been migrated by early 2018 to allow weekly capping for Oyster to be switched on. |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 28, 2017 0:56:24 GMT
norbitonflyer, Grahamhewett, it depends on how the smart card system is implemented. If the regime in Holland is emulated then passengers with smart cards will need to use a card reader at boundary stations. Maybe not though for paper 'print at home' tickets, although these may not allow exit from a station at the ticket gates if no entry was ever recorded. Some passengers in Holland need two smart cards to get around the system. Especially those with free or discounted off-peak travel. See here: www.iamexpat.nl/read-and-discuss/expat-page/news/ns-adapted-rules-discount-outside-rush-hour-the-netherlandsSimon |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 28, 2017 1:14:04 GMT
Well I have a question that is exactly on thread. There was talk of Oyster being migrated (if that is the right word) to back office at the same time as the January 2018 fares revision. Is this still the plan? On the basis that Oyster transactions will need to be routed via the "back office system" to activate weekly capping then yes, based on recent statements, the system will have been migrated by early 2018 to allow weekly capping for Oyster to be switched on. Thanks. It will be nice if passengers are informed in advance, if only so that they can expect the system to start working differently from xyz date. I suppose this means that weekly Travelcards will also be withdrawn. Then monthly... Alas. Simon |
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.....and I don't take kindly to a like being issued by a forum member to his own reprimand. A tad sarcastic and a very bad move........ 
