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Post by phoenixcronin on Dec 14, 2016 16:30:17 GMT
Earlier today Bombardier tweeted this picture which includes some of their current and future trains, including the S Stock, Class 345 (Crossrail) and the Class 710 for the Overground:
I was really pleased to see that they've modified the design of the 710 front end. Earlier renderings showed it with the same (ugly IMHO) design of the 345, but this one has some changes, including more angular and slanted front headlight clusters and a redesigned area around the coupler. I think it looks much better! The colour scheme is also very nice
For reference, this was the previous design:
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Post by domh245 on Dec 14, 2016 16:37:10 GMT
It certainly does look a bit better, although I'm not overly keen on the orange front end, nor can I imagine LO allowing a deviation in their brand for it.
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Post by stapler on Dec 14, 2016 18:25:52 GMT
Is there any safety reason now for yellow ends?
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Post by tjw on Dec 14, 2016 19:34:00 GMT
Is there any safety reason now for yellow ends? No, yellow ends were introduced to increase the safety of trackside staff, this was in the days when many trains had white disks / oil lamps or weak bulbs to denote their presence. Now we have strong beam headlamps and tube of toothpaste liveries (and far fewer trackside staff) they are not really needed. You can now see the bright beam of the headlamp long before you can see the colour of the front of the train. Also L.U. have run quite happily without yellow ends.
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Post by Chris M on Dec 14, 2016 19:44:50 GMT
Also L.U. have run quite happily without yellow ends. The (half) red fronts of LU trains perform the same function though - likewise the bright red buffer beams on many steam locomotives (although they also provide a much more significant auditory warning of their presence than modern trains)
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Dec 14, 2016 19:44:55 GMT
It certainly does look a bit better, although I'm not overly keen on the orange front end, nor can I imagine LO allowing a deviation in their brand for it. Is it possible that the LO brand was originally for orange front ends, the same colour as the doors - similar to Underground red for fronts and doors, and that they were only prevented from doing so by NR rules which applied yellow over their preferred scheme? in light of the new rules, will 378s be permitted to have their yellow bits repainted orange to blend with the 710s?
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Post by Chris M on Dec 14, 2016 19:48:33 GMT
Given that trains with suitably bright headlights are no longer required to have yellow ends at all, I see no reason why 378s should not be allowed to replace yellow with orange (which I suspect will have very similar visual properties to the yellow anyway)
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Post by tjw on Dec 14, 2016 20:00:24 GMT
Also L.U. have run quite happily without yellow ends. The (half) red fronts of LU trains perform the same function though - likewise the bright red buffer beams on many steam locomotives (although they also provide a much more significant auditory warning of their presence than modern trains) The Red on L.U. trains is rather more recent than the yellow... I presume that the Red ends are a safety feature, but I don't remember it being mentioned on the L.U. trackside safety course. N.B. While steam engines can make quite a bit of noise, they can also run surprisingly quietly downhill. There are quite a few fatalities attributed to the almost inaudible approach of steam locomotives. Always keep a good look out, and don't rely on lookouts and the visibility of your HVJ!
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Post by class411 on Dec 14, 2016 20:16:10 GMT
N.B. While steam engines can make quite a bit of noise, they can also run surprisingly quietly downhill. There are quite a few fatalities attributed to the almost inaudible approach of steam locomotives. Always keep a good look out, and don't rely on lookouts and the visibility of your HVJ! Also, of course, there would have been the situation where there was another engine on an adjacent track making a lot of noise, masking the sound of an engine approaching on the track on which you were standing.
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Post by crusty54 on Dec 14, 2016 20:21:02 GMT
Think most designers favour black fronts and they do provide a good contrast with the powerful headlights.
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Post by domh245 on Dec 14, 2016 20:36:39 GMT
I might be wrong, but my understanding is that only trains meeting a higher standard of lighting are able to go without the yellow front end, which the 387s do not, as far as I'm aware. Clause 3.3.1 of GM/RT2131 gives the following lighting cases which must be met to be able to drop the yellow panel: a) Marker lamps only (white marker lamps at the front of the train and red tail lamps at the rear of the train). b) Day time running (1 or 2 ‘Full beam’ head lamps, with a total of 3 white front end lights in a triangle arrangement as defined in the OPE TSI, the remainder being marker lamps). c) Night time running (2 ‘Dimmed’ head lamps and one top marker lamp). d) Tail lamps only. Whilst the Class 378s can meet points a and d, I think that they wouldn't be able to pass points b or c without modifications to the way in which the lights work, assuming that the lights themselves are suitably bright (according to BS EN15153-1* and the TSI for Locomotives and Passenger Rolling Stock). Indeed, the only units in the country that I can think of that meet these requirements are the 700s (and derivatives), 800s (and derivatives), 345s (and derivatives) and the 385s. I would be surprised if the livery was developed with orange fronts in mind, given that it was introduced in 2009, way before there was even any plan to switch to this latest lighting system. That said, I think that whilst orange sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the current LO fleet, it would be the most sensible colour to go with if they wanted to ditch yellow. You can claim similarity to the LU livery through the front being the same colour as the doors, and to the Tramlink livery by the front being the same colour as the line (would piping be a more suitable description?) that runs along the top of the blue band at the bottom of the bodyside. *I've looked it up in the interests of completeness, and the minimum requirements for the headlights are 150mm illuminated diameter and minimum 40,000 candela luminous intensity on full beam (12,000cd dimmed). Marker lights are minimum 110mm illuminated diameter and 300cd on full beam for the lower marker lights.
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Post by rail2210 on Dec 14, 2016 21:02:34 GMT
I agree with it looking slightly better now. Are there any other major differences between the 345s and 710s other than doors/length and colour scheme?
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Post by domh245 on Dec 14, 2016 21:07:50 GMT
I agree with it looking slightly better now. Are there any other major differences between the 345s and 710s other than doors/length and colour scheme? One fleet of 710s will be fitted with third rail shoes for use on the Watford - Euston line, but other than that, nothing major pops out (that isn't already covered by the length issue). Maybe some tweaks to the design based on early experience building and testing 345s.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 18:53:09 GMT
Oooh, I like that Orange front. Never been a fan of yellow front ends.
As a side note I was given the project of investigating whether a trial of luminous yellow fronts could be feasible when I worked for LTS Rail (as C2C was named prior to Privatisation). The British Rail board were not impressed with innovation back then and told me where to go.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 20:42:41 GMT
The class 345 and 710 will incidentally be the first new Post-Brexit trains to be introduced onto the UK railway network!!
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Post by xercesfobe on Dec 18, 2016 10:40:40 GMT
I like the 378 and 387 cab fronts as they a very neat functional and allow through cab connections.
XF
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Post by dazz285 on Dec 18, 2016 12:24:43 GMT
The 710 will have walk through but no access to the cab which is the same as the 378's
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 15, 2017 17:11:56 GMT
update:
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Post by domh245 on Jan 15, 2017 17:21:31 GMT
Well, how about that then, they will be orange fronted!
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jan 15, 2017 17:59:31 GMT
The class 345 and 710 will incidentally be the first new Post-Brexit trains to be introduced onto the UK railway network!! That will depend on when Brexit actually occurs. At present, it hasn't and we still don't know exactly when it will be. I'd put money on 345s arriving before it.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Jan 15, 2017 20:42:36 GMT
update: Looks like the panel containing the headlight clusters is separate from the rest of the cab shell, so the (in my opinion) ugly cylindrical headlights of the Crossrail 345's can be changed to this much nicer angular design. Wishful thinking perhaps...
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Post by dazz285 on Feb 10, 2017 14:20:34 GMT
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Post by wimblephil on Feb 15, 2017 22:24:24 GMT
Am I the only one who actually prefers the original design!? And I'm not keen on that Orange. Perhaps it's just not being used to it, but it just doesn't look right! Although I do like the idea of it tying into the LO branding better, much like the Red ends of the Underground does. Perhaps it'll be a grower...!
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 15, 2017 22:30:15 GMT
Personally I think the original looked too much like a squashed fish, so I think this is a good improvement. I'm still upset that the Crossrail 345s will be stuck with that ugly look though
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Post by Chris M on Feb 16, 2017 0:26:15 GMT
And I'm not keen on that Orange. Perhaps it's just not being used to it, but it just doesn't look right! Although I do like the idea of it tying into the LO branding better, much like the Red ends of the Underground does. Perhaps it'll be a grower...! As long as we don't get teal-fronted DLR trains...
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Post by dazz285 on Mar 18, 2017 10:44:32 GMT
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Post by A60stock on Mar 18, 2017 16:06:06 GMT
And I'm not keen on that Orange. Perhaps it's just not being used to it, but it just doesn't look right! Although I do like the idea of it tying into the LO branding better, much like the Red ends of the Underground does. Perhaps it'll be a grower...! As long as we don't get teal-fronted DLR trains... Actually this is an odd one for me, I have always wondered why the DLR doesn't quite follow the standard TFL style of livery when its trains were refurbished/b07 stock introducted, for which i would have expected a similar livery to the underground/overground but with teal doors and maybe teal front instead. As like this: www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/20709-dlr-tfl-corporate-livery/Ok so maybe the front of the train could be kept as the current black....
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 18, 2017 17:20:49 GMT
The DLR livery fails in corporate terms in that the roundels should have a pale/white background.
Saw Class 345 train 5 on test on Wednesday night. Running with TFL RAIL roundels outlined in white on all edges.
This should be the first train in public service in May.
No space for roundels on the fronts of these or Class 710.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2017 21:12:21 GMT
Update:
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Post by brigham on Aug 30, 2017 7:27:10 GMT
"The class 345 and 710 will incidentally be the first new Post-Brexit trains to be introduced onto the UK railway network!!"
Will we still have a UK railway network? I think we've left it too late!
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