Goblin Electrification info

For goodness sake - cut the melodrama. There is nothing to suggest the GOBLIN will not reopen after the works. If you want the trains to keep running then do you also want the electrification works to take until 2020? Yes there have been closures in the past - that was to improve clearances for freight and to replace the signalling. Some of that work also improved clearances for electrification meaning less work this time. Also some overbridges have been replaced in recent years because they effectively "broke" - they failed axle loading tests. Upon rebuild those bridges have relocated services and utilities and improved clearances. Without that work then the scope of the upcoming blockade would be bigger and almost certainly with a longer duration.

Yes it will be a pain in the posterior while the route is closed but does anyone regret the blockade of the North London Line which allowed its reconstruction to a modern standard with new electrification, improved stations and new signalling? I don't hear people moaning about that because they've now got a "new" railway that works pretty well when freight trains aren't falling off the tracks.

The only issue with the GOBLIN is what rolling stock will run under the wires when it reopens. Let's hope it's not the class 172s as I expect TfL will have some very sceptical passengers to deal with. TfL have said via Twitter that they have been trying to lease some EMUs until their new trains turn up but nothing's sorted yet. I suspect we might see ex TfL Rail class 315s turn up *if* the class 345s for Crossrail turn up on time and run OK but I suspect it's going to be very tight indeed.

War is ongoing, to discuss further would be too much OT for here. 

re: the Finchley Central - Edgware railway route, war only delayed the works - they could have been finished afterwards. The Central Line proved this! It was civil servants who decided that the LMS service from Mill Hill Broadway would be good enough to not need a second service in the close vicinity who effectively killed the line. What a terrible mistake that has proven to be - as you may recall, some months ago the people of Mill Hill were lobbying for improvements at Broadway station because the (now) Thameslink service is so bad that it is seen as passenger repelling - rather than enticing.

LNWR / Bakerloo Line electrification was also completed sufficiently for electric services to commence during WW1.


Thanks, its not that I am panicking as such but I am looking at a previous time when a railway route in London was closed for electrification and other works, with the project ending in disaster.

Even without the war the numbers of people using the new electric service soared, its just that only the lucky ones benefitted - the rest ended up with nothing. Had the 1940s electrification works been completed the two routes which closed would also have been very well used. 

I feel sure that the cyclists would love to see Goblin also end up closed and converted into an off-street cycle track. I question whether everyone else who lives in the area served by Goblin trains would be so pleased. 

As someone who knows what it is like to lose a local rail service, even if only temporarily (Central Line closure when motors were falling off the trains) I have a lot of sympathy and understanding for the sometimes considerable inconvenience caused. Plus the extra expense (bus and train fares, with other railway routes often more expensive too) and what I call "time theft" as overall journeys take longer - depending on where people lived the need to catch a bus to an alternative railhead meant that journeys could sometimes be 30+ minutes longer each way!

Simon

ps I tweeted a link to this thread because some people who would like to use the Goblin line are already complaining about the weekend closures on this and other Overground routes.

Replacing the wires is not the same as putting new masts in - especially on viaducts. The GWML is being electrified, but that has the luxury of four tracks, allowing two to be kept open. No doubt the GEML re-wiring will also benefit from that advantage over much of its length.



Green Belt legislation did for the Bushey Heath extension, and without that it may have been felt that one route to Edgware could cope

I'm not surprised that people are already complaining. It's what we do best in the UK!   Mind you Simon, at least your "time theft" (like that BTW) will be more than repaid by "time gifts" when the longer and more frequent trains are available to the travelling public earlier than they would have been using a non-blockade method. The inconvenience will give birth to improvement. Every cloud and all that.........

I've also no doubt that the work schedules will have been padded, particularly bearing in mind all the moaning that accompanied the slight delays in S Stock introduction. They'll have learnt their lesson on that one. This way they'll more than likely finish early to a great fanfare, although I'd lay reasonable odds that some will still find a way to whinge!   

We look forward to the deluge of new District Dave Forum applications from you Tweet! 

East London's gonna be hell, is there point even electrifying it for this big closure, then the possibility of seeing a few months of old and tatty trains when the current trains are fairly new (but unfortunalety short)?

The new trains are already on order. And imagine the outcry if once they are delivered they have to be left in a siding somewhere because the wires are not ready for them. (It happened with both the 313s and the 317s)

And would you rather be sitting on an old 315 or standing on a new 172?

Well I've no way of knowing for certain but comments elsewhere from somewhere who probably does know suggests that a lot of work is needed on bridges and structures. You have to get those right so you can up the line speed to give some real benefit from running electric passenger and freight trains. We need that benefit if more freight and more GOBLIN trains are to be run. We know TfL aspire to a x12 headway on the GOBLIN. Unfortunately some of the freight links won't be done until 2018 (to ECML and MML) so we'll probably still have diesel workings and there's a need to wire freight terminals Thameside.

I think there are still a lot of bridges in residential side roads that need attention - and you can't do adjacent ones at the same time or you'll sever neighbourhoods which will drive people mad. Assuming bridge replacement takes a few months for each one then 8 months isn't much time really. At some point trains or rail vehicles will have to run in order that the masts and wires can be installed. Also remember our variable weather - doesn't take much to stop bridges being swung into place - the one near Purley is delayed at least a year after severe winds were forecast last Christmas. Of course the winds weren't then as severe as predicted and the new bridge could have been put in place and old one removed. My sense of things is that 8 months is probably a pretty tight programme overall given you can't fix civils in a couple of weeks and they have to be done before you can run cables, install masts and hang the wires. Another comment from elsewhere is that the GOBLIN has multiple connections into other wired lines and that connecting it all up has to be very carefully co-ordinated in terms of necessary possessions on the connecting routes. That seems like a load of activity that's on the critical path. The first example of that was out at Gospel Oak on Christmas Day where Network Rail had about 6 hours to do a crucial bit of work before power on other lines had to be re-energised.

I don't know about platform lengths. Clearly several stations have long platforms that can be refurbished to take up to 6 cars. However Gospel Oak and South Tottenham are more constrained. I also don't know about Harringay Green Lanes - should be possible to extend where the old platforms were but depends on the state of the embankment. I'd not be shocked if all we get is platforms for 4 car EMUs at this stage. We know there's no appetite to spend money speculatively for 5 cars until the decision to buy the extra carriages has been taken (rest of the Overground shows that).

Regarding bridge replacement, 2 days? Stobart Rail time elapse bridge replacement. Obviously every bridge is different, but things have certainly changed.

25,000 volts on the overhead means a new bridge needs a lot of planning to ensure everything is OK for future use.

There's an amazing temporary footbridge at Forest Gate that went up on Christmas/Boxing Day.

There is a relevant Mayor's Question and Answer (just published) that explains that TfL won't be leasing EMUs prior to the new trains' delivery so Class 172s under the wires it will be!!



While I am sure there are good reasons for the above you can guarantee this issue will run and run and you don't need to be a genius to predict what the Standard's headline will be when the line reopens and a diddy 2 car diesel train comes along.

If the electrified line can't be fully used for a year or so because there are no electric trains, why not spread the engineering works over 16 months and avoid such a long total closure?
OR since the new Crossrail trains are being delivered from Spring 2017, why don't TFL rail export some 315s to LOROL to replace the 172s? I don't buy the "too expensive to lease" idea, as the 172s would find a ready market in the provinces still benighted by buses on wagon wheels of the late 70s!¬

Given Porterbook have ordered extra Class 387s from Bombardier with no specific franchise in mind, it does seem daft that TfL can't arrange to lease a few until the new EMUs arrive
www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rolling-stock/bombardier-to-build-another-80-class-387-emus-for-porterbrook

Sorry, Snoggle, what effect will Crossrail have on freight on the GEML?

That should affect only trains using Forest Gate Jc, shouldn't it? Otherwise freights keep to the main lines. Of course, I take the point that diversion from the LTS has to be that way, but isn't it 2019 before Crossrail ex GEML goes through the big hole and the service frequencies increase?