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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 17, 2015 19:23:38 GMT
I can't remember where I read it but I recall someone mentioning that 1938TS had not run in revenue on tne Central Line. However, I was browsing through a publication "Underground Train File - Tube Stock 1933-1959" by Brian Hardy and found text on page 74 saying that a 3 car 38TS (10177-012265-11177) in red livery operated between Epping and Ongar from 1th November 1957 alongside the 1935TS (originally red and the repainted silver/white) although it doesn't mention an end date. It does add that a 1927 trailer was added to the formation during 1958.
There's a good picture of it in the book taken on the passing loop at North Weald heading towards Epping but I wouldn't want to be in breach of copyright by scanning it here. The text on the picture says: A three car unit of 1938 Tube Stock was loaned to the Central Line from the end of 1957 to deputise for a unit of 1935 stock that was being used for engineering tests. It is seen at North Weald on 19th July 1957. (Alan A. Jackson).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2015 22:33:33 GMT
That is correct. It went back to the Northern in 1960 when 1935 unit 10011/11011 (and its converted Standard Stock trailer) was released from test train work. We should also not forget that 1938 trailers also operated on the Hainault-Woodford and latterly the Epping-Ongar shuttle.
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Post by stapler on Sept 18, 2015 7:34:22 GMT
I can't remember where I read it but I recall someone mentioning that 1938TS had not run in revenue on tne Central Line. However, I was browsing through a publication "Underground Train File - Tube Stock 1933-1959" by Brian Hardy and found text on page 74 saying that a 3 car 38TS (10177-012265-11177) in red livery operated between Epping and Ongar from 1th November 1957 alongside the 1935TS (originally red and the repainted silver/white) although it doesn't mention an end date. It does add that a 1927 trailer was added to the formation during 1958. There's a good picture of it in the book taken on the passing loop at North Weald heading towards Epping but I wouldn't want to be in breach of copyright by scanning it here. The text on the picture says: A three car unit of 1938 Tube Stock was loaned to the Central Line from the end of 1957 to deputise for a unit of 1935 stock that was being used for engineering tests. It is seen at North Weald on 19th July 1957. (Alan A. Jackson).Think that caption must be wrong, because the first day of electric working through North Weald was 18 November 1957. Also of course the Epping-Ongar shuttle sets also worked in revenue-earning service to Loughton or Woodford trips. |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Sept 18, 2015 11:58:32 GMT
To run between Liverpool St & White City 38TS had to have positive shoegear removed or strapped up so any stock transfers would be between 2 battery or ballast locos.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 18, 2015 13:25:31 GMT
To run between Liverpool St & White City 38TS had to have positive shoegear removed or strapped up so any stock transfers would be between 2 battery or ballast locos. I thought that was true of any tube stock not fitted with +ve shoegear at the higher position required for the Central Line (a legacy of the CLR's tunnel profile being different from the Yerkes Tubes) |
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metman
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Post by metman on Sept 18, 2015 22:13:55 GMT
I imagine the 1938 stock was either fitted with high lift shoe gear or dragged. I suspect in those days LT made it happen!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 17:05:54 GMT
I can't remember where I read it but I recall someone mentioning that 1938TS had not run in revenue on tne Central Line. However, I was browsing through a publication "Underground Train File - Tube Stock 1933-1959" by Brian Hardy and found text on page 74 saying that a 3 car 38TS (10177-012265-11177) in red livery operated between Epping and Ongar from 1th November 1957 alongside the 1935TS (originally red and the repainted silver/white) although it doesn't mention an end date. It does add that a 1927 trailer was added to the formation during 1958. There's a good picture of it in the book taken on the passing loop at North Weald heading towards Epping but I wouldn't want to be in breach of copyright by scanning it here. The text on the picture says: A three car unit of 1938 Tube Stock was loaned to the Central Line from the end of 1957 to deputise for a unit of 1935 stock that was being used for engineering tests. It is seen at North Weald on 19th July 1957. (Alan A. Jackson).Looking at my copy now on page 74 the text says (2nd para, 4th line) it was transferred on 16 November (therefore ready to operate in service when electrified from 18 November). I can confirm the transfer date was 16/11/57 and it returned to the Northern on 5/6/60. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 17:10:28 GMT
I can't remember where I read it but I recall someone mentioning that 1938TS had not run in revenue on tne Central Line. However, I was browsing through a publication "Underground Train File - Tube Stock 1933-1959" by Brian Hardy and found text on page 74 saying that a 3 car 38TS (10177-012265-11177) in red livery operated between Epping and Ongar from 1th November 1957 alongside the 1935TS (originally red and the repainted silver/white) although it doesn't mention an end date. It does add that a 1927 trailer was added to the formation during 1958. There's a good picture of it in the book taken on the passing loop at North Weald heading towards Epping but I wouldn't want to be in breach of copyright by scanning it here. The text on the picture says: A three car unit of 1938 Tube Stock was loaned to the Central Line from the end of 1957 to deputise for a unit of 1935 stock that was being used for engineering tests. It is seen at North Weald on 19th July 1957. (Alan A. Jackson).Think that caption must be wrong, because the first day of electric working through North Weald was 18 November 1957. Also of course the Epping-Ongar shuttle sets also worked in revenue-earning service to Loughton or Woodford trips. I have checked the photograph itself and the date should be 19 July 1958, not 1957. And of course they did work in service off Ongar-Epping to Loughton and Woodford-Hainault. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 20, 2015 18:16:16 GMT
Think that caption must be wrong, because the first day of electric working through North Weald was 18 November 1957. Also of course the Epping-Ongar shuttle sets also worked in revenue-earning service to Loughton or Woodford trips. I have checked the photograph itself and the date should be 19 July 1958, not 1957. And of course they did work in service off Ongar-Epping to Loughton and Woodford-Hainault. Cheers Reg! I thought the dates were a bit odd. My copy must be an older version that's been edited later if that's what you see. Nevertheless, it's a smashing photo on p74. A shame I can't scan and publish it here without infringing copyright. I might email the owner to see if he minds me doing just that!  |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 21, 2015 21:38:10 GMT
Following some advice from reganorak, I've done a quick scan of the picture and (apparently erroneous) text from page 74 of "The Underground Train File - Tube Stock 1933-1959" showing the train at North Weald and also the attribution to the late Alan A. Jackson. A recommended book for those that don't have it. Some smashing pictures and detailed descriptions (even if some of the dates are a bit out!  ) |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Sept 25, 2015 12:06:29 GMT
To run between Liverpool St & White City 38TS had to have positive shoegear removed or strapped up so any stock transfers would be between 2 battery or ballast locos. I thought that was true of any tube stock not fitted with +ve shoegear at the higher position required for the Central Line (a legacy of the CLR's tunnel profile being different from the Yerkes Tubes) 67TS could travel under their own power throughout the Central Line & I assume due to the stock similarities 72 & 73TS could too.The only exception to this was when units 892 & 894 came to Hainault for testing on the loop,as they had chopper control at that time they were towed using 72TS unit 3203 as the pilot. |
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Post by elo10538 on Sept 25, 2015 13:05:55 GMT
An interesting piece of information Towerman. I wonder why the 3 Car Craven Unit came to grieve on 1st October last year, when being taken back to Ruislip Depot from the End Of Tube event on the Epping Ongar Railway. It was after all fitted out to run on the Central Line and had been recently gauged, and ran under it's own power from Northfields Depot to Ruislip Depot, prior to being taken over to the EOR. I wonder what could have caused the problems?
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Post by Chris M on Sept 25, 2015 16:51:56 GMT
Wasn't the issue actually with one of the battery locos topping and tailing the Cravens unit?
I'm not aware that the report into the incident, if completed, is in the public domian (yet)?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 17:13:08 GMT
There are a few threads relating to the incident which the Cravens 1960 stock was involved in, knocking around:
One, two, three.
Let's try and keep this thread from drifting off-topic, since it's quite an interesting one.
If we want to discuss the incident with the Cravens 1960 stock, we should do that separately, however, I would like to draw members' attention to this post in particular.
The incident the Cravens 1960 stock was involved in is quite contentious and has been discussed here in good detail. We are having a little chat about this upstairs, but, for the time being, unless anybody has anything really concrete to add, let's not get involved in additional speculation.
Ta!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 25, 2015 22:28:27 GMT
67TS could travel under their own power throughout the Central Line & I assume due to the stock similarities 72 & 73TS could too.The only exception to this was when units 892 & 894 came to Hainault for testing on the loop,as they had chopper control at that time they were towed using 72TS unit 3203 as the pilot. As was mentioned in passing on one of the Cravens threads, positive shoes have to be mounted higher up on trains running on the Central than on other lines. This is for technical reasons to do with the CLR having built its tunnels to a different profile to the Yerkes Tubes, requiring the positive rail, and thus the shoes of any train using it, to be mounted higher than on other lines. Trains that routinely run on that line (such as 1992 stock) , or might be expected to do so (such as battery locos) 1967 stock must also have had this capability, as initial trials of ATO were done at the end of that line remote from any connection to the rest of the network (albeit geographically quite close to Northumberland Park!) and 1967 stock continued to work the shuttle for some years afterwards, alongside the 1960 stock 9which was of course originally designed for the Central, but remained an oddball because a repeat order for Metro-Cammel (1959-type) stock was placed instead - the 1962 stock. Neither 72 nor 73 TS ever worked on the Central, so would have needed to be modified with "high lift" shoegear for any special trips. I would guess the 1935 and 1938 stock that once worked the NE shuttles would need the same modification. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 25, 2015 23:09:30 GMT
Is the positive rail at non-standard height on the open sections as well as the central tunnel section? I've heard the shoes referred to as "high lift" in the past.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 26, 2015 0:28:18 GMT
According to CULG: If that is correct, then, in theory, any tube-gauge stock should be able to run as far west as Bethnal Green crossover - assuming it can get there in the first place as there are no rail connections to the Central line east of Ruislip. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 26, 2015 11:24:59 GMT
Neither 72 nor 73 TS ever worked on the Central, so would have needed to be modified with "high lift" shoegear for any special trips. I would guess the 1935 and 1938 stock that once worked the NE shuttles would need the same modification. NF, there was one 3 car train of 1973TS (the ETT) that ran in passenger service shuttling between Woodford and Hainault and I travelled on it a few times. reganorak had this to say about it a while back: Yes, the ETT (Experimental Tube Train), units 892 and 894, although only 892 ever carried passengers, albeit for just a short while. 892 went to Hainault 27/2/79, ex-Hainault 23/6/85. First carried passengers 25/7/83 (and spasmodically at that!). Link to thread: Unusual Train |
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Post by miff on Sept 26, 2015 13:12:15 GMT
Did the '67 stock often used on Woodford-Hainault have high lift gear or was it transferred under tow, with shoes off?
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Post by superteacher on Sept 26, 2015 13:27:14 GMT
Did the '67 stock often used on Woodford-Hainault have high lift gear or was it transferred under tow, with shoes off? I'm pretty sure that most of the 67's left the Central line via the former Leyton junction, although one stayed much longer, until around 1984 ish. If they left via Leyton, they wouldn't need the high lift shoes. |
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Post by miff on Sept 26, 2015 13:38:50 GMT
I think the connection at Leyton was removed by the early 70s.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 15:33:39 GMT
I think the connection at Leyton was removed by the early 70s. It was indeed. I photographed the Central > Vic (and vice versa) transfers in various locations post-early-1970s. The connection between the Central/District at Ealing Broadway was used. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 15:34:05 GMT
.... and they travelled unaided.
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Post by castlebar on Sept 26, 2015 18:01:02 GMT
So how did stock manage when it was transferred via the District at Ealing Broadway? And is it true that now, the only rail access to the Central is via the NR at West Ruislip, or via the Ruislip depot to the Uxbridge Met line. If live rail heights are different, how does that work?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 26, 2015 21:02:08 GMT
So how did stock manage when it was transferred via the District at Ealing Broadway? And is it true that now, the only rail access to the Central is via the NR at West Ruislip, or via the Ruislip depot to the Uxbridge Met line. If live rail heights are different, how does that work? As I understand it, hi-lift fitted units can operate at both heights. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 8:19:29 GMT
Following some advice from reganorak, I've done a quick scan of the picture and (apparently erroneous) text from page 74 of "The Underground Train File - Tube Stock 1933-1959" showing the train at North Weald and also the attribution to the late Alan A. Jackson.A recommended book for those that don't have it. Some smashing pictures and detailed descriptions (even if some of the dates are a bit out! ) The date of course should be 19 July 1958 not 1957  |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 28, 2015 9:03:09 GMT
Following some advice from reganorak, I've done a quick scan of the picture and (apparently erroneous) text from page 74 of "The Underground Train File - Tube Stock 1933-1959" showing the train at North Weald and also the attribution to the late Alan A. Jackson.A recommended book for those that don't have it. Some smashing pictures and detailed descriptions (even if some of the dates are a bit out! ) The date of course should be 19 July 1958 not 1957 That's why I scanned the text as well, just so you know it wasn't my cock-up in the first place!  I've been trying to find the picture of the 73TS ETT at Hainault that somebody was kind enough to dig up on here a couple of years ago but as yet have not been lucky. I'll have a trawl through the archives on my PC. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 12:15:58 GMT
I have one taken in Hainault depot but not one in service. I think the one in service has been in a Capital Transport publication taken by David Stuttard.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Oct 2, 2015 11:56:08 GMT
Did the '67 stock often used on Woodford-Hainault have high lift gear or was it transferred under tow, with shoes off? Before the Victoria Line opened 67TS transferred to N/Park via Leyton Junction between battery locos,after the line opened any stock transfers from Hainault to N/Park was done under their own power(via Ealing Bdwy) |
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Post by flippyff on Oct 2, 2015 16:18:09 GMT
Did the '67 stock often used on Woodford-Hainault have high lift gear or was it transferred under tow, with shoes off? Before the Victoria Line opened 67TS transferred to N/Park via Leyton Junction between battery locos,after the line opened any stock transfers from Hainault to N/Park was done under their own power(via Ealing Bdwy) Why did they need to be transferred to Newbury Park? ;-) :-D |
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I've been trying to find the picture of the 73TS ETT at Hainault that somebody was kind enough to dig up on here a couple of years ago but as yet have not been lucky. I'll have a trawl through the archives on my PC.
