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Post by superteacher on Sept 16, 2015 22:01:29 GMT
i can't remember seeing this discussed anywhere else, but when Crossrail fully opens will some of the peak trains non stop at Maryland, Forest Gate, Manor Park, Goodmayes or Seven Kings as they do at present?
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 16, 2015 22:11:45 GMT
i can't remember seeing this discussed anywhere else, but when Crossrail fully opens will some of the peak trains non stop at Maryland, Forest Gate, Manor Park, Goodmayes or Seven Kings as they do at present? This is straight off their site & is included in the blurb for all the stations you mentioned(my font): When the full Crossrail service commences in 2019, Crossrail will provide 12 trains per hour from and towards central London during peak periods. These will be all station stopping services replacing the existing metro service.So looks like they are going to provide an ASSS! |
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Post by melikepie on Sept 16, 2015 22:21:23 GMT
I'm not sure a lot of four-legged animals on rails would go down well with the general public
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Post by superteacher on Sept 17, 2015 18:09:42 GMT
Taking away the semi fasts won't be popular!
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 17, 2015 19:47:48 GMT
Taking away the semi fasts won't be popular! Could be right, but how many peak tph are there at present? |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 17, 2015 20:05:48 GMT
Taking away the semi fasts won't be popular! Could be right, but how many peak tph are there at present? Between 17:00 and 18:00 from Liverpool Street, there are 8 trains to Shenfield with 7 to Gidea Park. Most of them are semi fasts. EDIT: They are all semi fasts! |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 17, 2015 20:51:03 GMT
Could be right, but how many peak tph are there at present? Between 17:00 and 18:00 from Liverpool Street, there are 8 trains to Shenfield with 7 to Gidea Park. Most of them are semi fasts. EDIT: They are all semi fasts! Thanks! So that gives us 50% more trains, making 38% more stops if it's just the five stations you named that constitute the "Passing Brompton Road" brigade at present. Their site claims (my font again): Our trains will be 200 metres long and be able to carry 1500 people - that's almost twice as much a London Underground train - creating a more comfortable passenger experience.Do we know how that compares to present services carrying capacity & whether carrying means seats-as if! |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 17, 2015 20:58:55 GMT
Between 17:00 and 18:00 from Liverpool Street, there are 8 trains to Shenfield with 7 to Gidea Park. Most of them are semi fasts. EDIT: They are all semi fasts! Thanks! So that gives us 50% more trains, making 38% more stops if it's just the five stations you named that constitute the "Passing Brompton Road" brigade at present. Their site claims (my font again): Our trains will be 200 metres long and be able to carry 1500 people - that's almost twice as much a London Underground train - creating a more comfortable passenger experience.Do we know how that compares to present services carrying capacity & whether carrying means seats-as if! It certainly doesn't mean seats ferret. I can see the day when seats are removed completely in order to accommodate the apocalyptic number of people likely to want to travel. How else will they manage it seeing as it takes a quarter lifetime to build a new line? Somebody remind me where seats are a thing of the past in other countries. |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 17, 2015 21:37:42 GMT
Thanks! So that gives us 50% more trains, making 38% more stops if it's just the five stations you named that constitute the "Passing Brompton Road" brigade at present. Their site claims (my font again): Our trains will be 200 metres long and be able to carry 1500 people - that's almost twice as much a London Underground train - creating a more comfortable passenger experience.Do we know how that compares to present services carrying capacity & whether carrying means seats-as if! It certainly doesn't mean seats ferret. I can see the day when seats are removed completely in order to accommodate the apocalyptic number of people likely to want to travel. How else will they manage it seeing as it takes a quarter lifetime to build a new line? Somebody remind me where seats are a thing of the past in other countries. Thought not! Must've spent all the seat money on publicity. Then leave worrying about passenger comforts to their children. |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 17, 2015 22:42:31 GMT
The loss of any non-stop trains will be a shame. For me in Ilford the all stations take about 50% longer than the trains which run non-stop from Stratford to Ilford. When walking time between home and station is also factored in the longer train journey when calling at all stations makes it faster to travel via Gants Hill.
When I was a youngster I used to time my journeys to the trains which ran to Colchester and out of Liverpool Street ran non-stop to Ilford, taking about a dozen minutes.
I have the 1980 time table for this route, and in those days there were 22 trains which ran as far as Ilford between 17:00 and 18:02 (4 to Ilford, 11 to Gidea Park and 7 to Shenfield). In 2014 there were just 16 trains (9 to Gidea Park and 7 to Shenfield).
Maybe the real reason for the overcrowding is to be found in the missing 6 trains?
Simon
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Post by A60stock on Sept 18, 2015 11:06:00 GMT
Im sure theres a good reason for semi-fasts but why did these exist in the first place when quicker alternatives already exist via the fast lines operated by AGA?
Do these semi fasts run via the same lines as the all stations "metro service?"
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Post by stapler on Sept 18, 2015 14:24:15 GMT
But there are now many more passengers from the inner stations than 30-40 yrs ago..... (as well as the outer!)
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Post by peterc on Sept 18, 2015 16:30:47 GMT
When I first commuted from Romford to LST in 69/70 there was a 10 minute cycle of departures.
1. Fast LST - this switched to the Main outside Romford. My memory is confusing these with the Semi Fast Southend services which I used when I moved to Brentwood and I can't remember where they switched back to the Electric line or if they stopped at Stratford.
1. Stopping to Seven Kings then Stratford and LST (Electric line all the way)
1. All stations which IIRC started at Shenfield
There were additional slows from the bay at Ilford I am not sure if they were every 10 minutes or only ran in alternate cycles.
At some point in the early 70s they stopped using the main line for the Gidea Park fasts and put in more Ilford stops to cater for intra suburban commuting.
The fast train home was always from platform 18 and people would queue at the points where the doors would be. I think there was a staff canteen adjacent as there was always a smell of cooking on that platform.
The 10 minute cycle extended to the Southend branch with one fast from Billericay to LST and one fast Harold Wood to Stratford. The latter switched to the main before Gidea Park and back to the Electric just before Stratford.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 21, 2015 21:06:11 GMT
Im sure theres a good reason for semi-fasts but why did these exist in the first place when quicker alternatives already exist via the fast lines operated by AGA? Do these semi fasts run via the same lines as the all stations "metro service?" Yes, they run via the slow lines. As for quicker alternatives, there aren't really any, since the main AGA line sees most trains run non stop from Stratford to Shenfield. 2 off peak trains per hour also call at Romford. |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 21, 2015 21:44:23 GMT
A few figures for you. Of the five stations, superteacher listed, three get over 2 million passengers using them a year, Manor Park is 1.8 million, Maryland 933,000. The interesting bit, over the last six years(2008/9 through 2013/4): Maryland----------passengers more than doubled. Forest Gate--------more than 50% increase. Manor Park---------50% increase. Goodmayes---------more than 25% increase. Seven Kings-------33% increase. All of them lost passengers in two of the first three years in that sequence, so last year's figures show Maryland----------passengers up by 125% from the lowest year(year two 2009/10). Forest Gate------passengers up by 65% from lowest(year two). Manor Park---------passengers up by 75% from lowest(year two) Goodmayes---------passengers up by 50% from lowest(year two) Seven Kings--------passengers up by 56% from lowest(year two) |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 21, 2015 23:53:52 GMT
A few figures for you. Of the five stations, superteacher listed, three get over 2 million passengers using them a year, Manor Park is 1.8 million, Maryland 933,000. The interesting bit, over the last six years(2008/9 through 2013/4): Maryland----------passengers more than doubled. Forest Gate--------more than 50% increase. Manor Park---------50% increase. Goodmayes---------more than 25% increase. Seven Kings-------33% increase. All of them lost passengers in two of the first three years in that sequence, so last year's figures show Maryland----------passengers up by 125% from the lowest year(year two 2009/10). Forest Gate------passengers up by 65% from lowest(year two). Manor Park---------passengers up by 75% from lowest(year two) Goodmayes---------passengers up by 50% from lowest(year two) Seven Kings--------passengers up by 56% from lowest(year two) As I said here or in another thread, since 1980 there are six fewer trains in the busiest part of the evening rush hour. If even four were reinstated as all stations to Ilford it would help reduce the overcrowding which at Stratford is often so severe that passengers are unable to board trains and extra staff are needed to act as 'packers'. Passengers using the stations from beyond Ilford will also benefit, simply because passengers will be happier to use the Ilford terminators - as they will be less crowded. As an aside, because of Crossrail the value of all properties within walking distance of these stations is rising significantly. Even though I live an 18 minute walk away (about double the walking time than to Gants Hill) there is still a Crossrail premium on properties in this road. I know this because someone just bought a house and the previous occupants were saying how happy they were at the higher price they got. It seems that through trains to Heathrow Airport is seen as very attractive - and no-one realises the cross platform interchange at Stratford is just so easy to use when you have heavy luggage. Simon |
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Post by peterc on Sept 22, 2015 10:25:25 GMT
A few figures for you. Of the five stations, superteacher listed, three get over 2 million passengers using them a year, Manor Park is 1.8 million, Maryland 933,000. The interesting bit, over the last six years(2008/9 through 2013/4): Maryland----------passengers more than doubled. Forest Gate--------more than 50% increase. Manor Park---------50% increase. Goodmayes---------more than 25% increase. Seven Kings-------33% increase. All of them lost passengers in two of the first three years in that sequence, so last year's figures show Maryland----------passengers up by 125% from the lowest year(year two 2009/10). Forest Gate------passengers up by 65% from lowest(year two). Manor Park---------passengers up by 75% from lowest(year two) Goodmayes---------passengers up by 50% from lowest(year two) Seven Kings--------passengers up by 56% from lowest(year two) Interesting figures. From my memories of commuting on the Great Eastern the inner stations were very much on the way down and Maryland seemed to exist only as a convenient place to avoid the crush on the platform if you actually wanted to go to Stratford itself. I would be curious as to the actual flows, back in 69 the timetable assumed that everybody wanted LST but gradually adapted for peak flows to Romford and Ilford. In those days Stratford wasn't much of a destination. |
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Post by stapler on Sept 22, 2015 14:47:52 GMT
In the late 60s, wasn't there an ER plan (which never became a formal proposal) to close Maryland, Bethnal Green, Lea Bridge, London Fields, and Cambridge Heath all as having derisory and falling usage? In the end, only Lea Bridge succumbed - and that is a bout to reopen.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 22, 2015 19:13:05 GMT
In the late 60s, wasn't there an ER plan (which never became a formal proposal) to close Maryland, Bethnal Green, Lea Bridge, London Fields, and Cambridge Heath all as having derisory and falling usage? In the end, only Lea Bridge succumbed - and that is a bout to reopen. Yes, I think it resurfaced both in the mid-70's and in the earlier 80's, though again not as a formal proposal. Have to agree with peterc Stratford wasn't much of a destination, even as late as 1997, when I had a two-day Civil Service course there. The NASA astronauts trained in Iceland, because it was supposed to be like the Moon, but Stratford might have been second choice in those days. And spsmiler has mentioned the Crossrail house premium-wonder if the five stations are starting to pick up Docklands overspill? No idea on how prices compare, but if it's still cheaper to buy a terraced house near, say, Seven Kings with the X-factor premium, than a Docklands apartment, it might indicate why those stations will be served by all peak-hours trains, especially if there are also ex-LA houses & flats available around there, that Docklands won't have? |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 22, 2015 20:23:45 GMT
I think it's common knowledge that transport demand in and to East London is rising far faster than anyone expected. The Shenfield line has always been busy but I'm not astonished to see the vast increases in patronage because "unpopular" areas have been very full of people who have moved in to London. As already said Crossrail will simply exacerbate the push on housing demand and prices.
I recently used a contra peak direction train from Manor Park to Stratford and was amazed at the numbers on the train. There were a few seats available but many people were standing and that's the opposite direction for the PM peak.
Somewhere I have an old draft timetable for Crossrail from the 1990s - that retained semi fast stopping patterns east and west of the Central Core but clearly thinking has changed in the light of changed circumstances.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 22, 2015 21:07:40 GMT
I think it's common knowledge that transport demand in and to East London is rising far faster than anyone expected. The Shenfield line has always been busy but I'm not astonished to see the vast increases in patronage because "unpopular" areas have been very full of people who have moved in to London. As already said Crossrail will simply exacerbate the push on housing demand and prices. I recently used a contra peak direction train from Manor Park to Stratford and was amazed at the numbers on the train. There were a few seats available but many people were standing and that's the opposite direction for the PM peak. Somewhere I have an old draft timetable for Crossrail from the 1990s - that retained semi fast stopping patterns east and west of the Central Core but clearly thinking has changed in the light of changed circumstances. Thanks-your recent journey is an eye-opener vide the numbers on the train. Makes you wonder when there actually is a lull in passengers! I wonder if another factor along this line has been the Olympics & the legacy thereof, because the passenger figures began to build up with the start of the serious build-up to them from mid-2010? And, Olympic Park isn't too far from Stratford, of course. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 22, 2015 21:25:59 GMT
I think it's common knowledge that transport demand in and to East London is rising far faster than anyone expected. The Shenfield line has always been busy but I'm not astonished to see the vast increases in patronage because "unpopular" areas have been very full of people who have moved in to London. As already said Crossrail will simply exacerbate the push on housing demand and prices. I recently used a contra peak direction train from Manor Park to Stratford and was amazed at the numbers on the train. There were a few seats available but many people were standing and that's the opposite direction for the PM peak. Somewhere I have an old draft timetable for Crossrail from the 1990s - that retained semi fast stopping patterns east and west of the Central Core but clearly thinking has changed in the light of changed circumstances. Thanks - your recent journey is an eye-opener vide the numbers on the train. Makes you wonder when there actually is a lull in passengers! I wonder if another factor along this line has been the Olympics & the legacy thereof, because the passenger figures began to build up with the start of the serious build-up to them from mid-2010? And, Olympic Park isn't too far from Stratford, of course. My completely unscientific view is that the numbers were rising before then. I saw it on the Vic Line - I used to travel fairly early so was in the "building workers" rush hour  and that grew and grew week by week and spread time wise. The AM peak is nearly 4 hours long now compared to 2 hours 15-20 years ago. Part of that was the redevelopment of the Olympic Park but it stretches back to 2007/8. There was obviously a progressive build up in construction volumes after 2011 more generally in London but we've also had big schemes like Crossrail also employing tens of thousands of people. For all the construction workers there are also office based staff on the projects and on suppliers teams too. London managed to keep a level of this activity going through and after the financial problems in 2008. There is also strong evidence that contra peak flows into London Bridge, Victoria and Waterloo are booming - stations like Kew Bridge and Brentford are seeing growing numbers because of local media companies growing. The increased night time activity in Central London also creates employment flows at unexpected times. Stratford has become a massive hub for transport and we should not underestimate the "pull" of something like a Westfield shopping centre. That has pushed demand to huge levels as well as more minor things like more housing and the O2. Where we have had improved transport services they've also pulled people in too - the Overground and DLR are examples of that as are better Tube services. The Vic Line is even more stupidly busy these days and I'm pretty convinced that's partly down to more frequent services, improved reliability and faster journey times. I can't prove the above but they're my thoughts on what I've observed. |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 22, 2015 21:49:43 GMT
Yes, I think it resurfaced both in the mid-70's and in the earlier 80's, though again not as a formal proposal. Have to agree with peterc Stratford wasn't much of a destination, even as late as 1997, when I had a two-day Civil Service course there. The NASA astronauts trained in Iceland, because it was supposed to be like the Moon, but Stratford might have been second choice in those days. And spsmiler has mentioned the Crossrail house premium-wonder if the five stations are starting to pick up Docklands overspill? No idea on how prices compare, but if it's still cheaper to buy a terraced house near, say, Seven Kings with the X-factor premium, than a Docklands apartment, it might indicate why those stations will be served by all peak-hours trains, especially if there are also ex-LA houses & flats available around there, that Docklands won't have? For those who work in Central London, here is a tidbit of info which may have been overlooked. The Docklands area is a major employer where people earn "Central London" rates of pay - but especially if you are commuting in from stations served by the GEML your fares will be for travel to and from Zone 2. The financial saving in not needing Zone 1 is quite significant. Of course this also applies to other areas where passengers can benefit from direct trains that avoid Zone 1, and you still get to travel like a sardine in a tin can. You just don't need to pay so much for the (um) 'privilege'!  Simon |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 22, 2015 22:11:49 GMT
My completely unscientific view is that the numbers were rising before then. I saw it on the Vic Line - I used to travel fairly early so was in the "building workers" rush hour and that grew and grew week by week and spread time wise. The AM peak is nearly 4 hours long now compared to 2 hours 15-20 years ago. Part of that was the redevelopment of the Olympic Park but it stretches back to 2007/8. There was obviously a progressive build up in construction volumes after 2011 more generally in London but we've also had big schemes like Crossrail also employing tens of thousands of people. For all the construction workers there are also office based staff on the projects and on suppliers teams too. London managed to keep a level of this activity going through and after the financial problems in 2008. There is also strong evidence that contra peak flows into London Bridge, Victoria and Waterloo are booming - stations like Kew Bridge and Brentford are seeing growing numbers because of local media companies growing. The increased night time activity in Central London also creates employment flows at unexpected times. Stratford has become a massive hub for transport and we should not underestimate the "pull" of something like a Westfield shopping centre. That has pushed demand to huge levels as well as more minor things like more housing and the O2. Where we have had improved transport services they've also pulled people in too - the Overground and DLR are examples of that as are better Tube services. The Vic Line is even more stupidly busy these days and I'm pretty convinced that's partly down to more frequent services, improved reliability and faster journey times. I can't prove the above but they're my thoughts on what I've observed. Thanks, that's highly revealing. I must admit, when we went from Croydon via Liverpool Street to Walton-On-The-Naze in 2013, we were surprised at the numbers on the trains, because we got one out of LS around 10:00 & one arriving back about 17:00 & both contra-peak direction. You don't need scientific observations that early-if your eyes are open, then you are fully awake and able to see things in a light as yet unjaundiced by the day's working traumas about to happen.  Still, you can always keep a bottle of sweet Martini & one of lemonade in your desk to cope with that, or at least I did when commuting from Ramsgate to Savile Row-went very well with a toasted sausage sarnie  For those who work in Central London, here is a tidbit of info which may have been overlooked. The Docklands area is a major employer where people earn "Central London" rates of pay - but especially if you are commuting in from stations served by the GEML your fares will be for travel to and from Zone 2. The financial saving in not needing Zone 1 is quite significant. Of course this also applies to other areas where passengers can benefit from direct trains that avoid Zone 1, and you still get to travel like a sardine in a tin can. You just don't need to pay so much for the (um) 'privilege'! Simon Well, well! What better reason, eh, than paying less for that privilege? Do you realise the world's first commuters were recognised by the Canterbury & Whitstable railway back in 1840-odd? Men & indeed women have been 'enjoying' that and clearly in ever-increasing numbers, too, for over 110 years. Wonder why the insects haven't taken over yet, or are they just sitting & waiting? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 23, 2015 6:45:32 GMT
The Docklands area is a major employer where people earn "Central London" rates of pay - but especially if you are commuting in from stations served by the GEML your fares will be for travel to and from Zone 2.The financial saving in not needing Zone 1 is quite significant.Of course this also applies to other areas where passengers can benefit from direct trains that avoid Zone 1, and you still get to travel like a sardine in a tin can. You just don't need to pay so much for the (um) 'privilege'! Vauxhall is an example - boundary Zone 1/2 so you can avoid TOC zone 1 fares and walk or bus to your Westminster office just as easily as you can from Waterloo or Victoria. (Even transferring to the Tube is cheaper as, although you still pay a Zone 1 Tube fare, your NR season doesn't need to cover Z1) The narrow platforms get extremely crowded and, despite the second staircase to platforms 7/8 put in recently, both are extremely busy. The down side is, of course, that you can never get a seat in the evening (or, on the busiest services, on the train at all), as they are already full on leaving Waterloo. |
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Post by stapler on Sept 23, 2015 7:36:40 GMT
The off peak overcrowding on the GEML would be less if the benighted AGA did not pare down their trains to 4 cars at that time!
Stratford, almost a forgotten station in the 60s,with a poky entrance onto semi-dereliction behind Angel Lane, and a tumbledown Edwardian building in the triangle (deserted, more or less, since the transfer of the Loughton line to LT), is now a heaving mass of humanity at all times. And they still can't build a decent canopy on plats 9/10, let alone 10A!
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Post by stapler on Sept 23, 2015 21:06:19 GMT
And it even occurs to me, that a suggestion to reopen/rebuild Coborn Rd station, closed 1948, would not even be far-fetched in the current renaissance of the inner suburbs.....
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Post by superteacher on Sept 24, 2015 17:46:42 GMT
The off peak overcrowding on the GEML would be less if the benighted AGA did not pare down their trains to 4 cars at that time! Stratford, almost a forgotten station in the 60s,with a poky entrance onto semi-dereliction behind Angel Lane, and a tumbledown Edwardian building in the triangle (deserted, more or less, since the transfer of the Loughton line to LT), is now a heaving mass of humanity at all times. And they still can't build a decent canopy on plats 9/10, let alone 10A! To be fair to AGA, they always ran 8 cars off peak during their tenure. It has been a few years now since they ran 4 car trains on the metro service. |
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Post by stapler on Sept 24, 2015 20:59:41 GMT
Yes = the metro is (TFL rail) and was always under GA 8-car sets. But not so on the fast lines off-peak! The worst times seem to be 3-4.30 with the schoolchildren from the grammar schools at Chelmsford and the European place at Ingatestone.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 24, 2015 21:05:37 GMT
Yes = the metro is (TFL rail) and was always under GA 8-car sets. But not so on the fast lines off-peak! The worst times seem to be 3-4.30 with the schoolchildren from the grammar schools at Chelmsford and the European place at Ingatestone. I know that the Southend and Braintree lines are usually 8 cars, as are the Clacton trains. Is it the Colchester Town and Ipswich trains that are 4 car? |
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and that grew and grew week by week and spread time wise. The AM peak is nearly 4 hours long now compared to 2 hours 15-20 years ago. Part of that was the redevelopment of the Olympic Park but it stretches back to 2007/8. There was obviously a progressive build up in construction volumes after 2011 more generally in London but we've also had big schemes like Crossrail also employing tens of thousands of people. For all the construction workers there are also office based staff on the projects and on suppliers teams too. London managed to keep a level of this activity going through and after the financial problems in 2008. There is also strong evidence that contra peak flows into London Bridge, Victoria and Waterloo are booming - stations like Kew Bridge and Brentford are seeing growing numbers because of local media companies growing. The increased night time activity in Central London also creates employment flows at unexpected times.
