Loughton-Stratford-Liverpool St DMU workings, 1960s

link not working . . .

Was there really much demand for these trains? They have always struck me as something of an anomaly.

I was only 5 when these trains stopped running but my Dad did occasionally wake me up to watch them pass on the embankment between Woodford Station and Woodford Junction. As I've said before on here I really can't recall much detail about them to be honest which is odd because I can remember the moon landing in 1969! 

Thanks for for the link though. Are there any pictures of the DMU on the line from the outside available anywhere?

22 was a Calling on signal...for a (4 car)train to enter the platform already occupied by another (4 car) train,for coupling purposes.
23 was the final shunt signal for a route out of the sidings complex.
Hope i've remembered this right....its been a long time.

I think you've transposed the captions - the second one is clearly at Loughton!

Fascinating - the detail is difficult to see - lighting conditions must have been far from ideal that early in the morning! - but the Ongar-bound unit appears to be a "Lea Valley" unit (class 125) - not that surprising in that area, but colour photos of them are rare as they were relatively early withdrawals (c 1975), at which time dmus were not generally considered interesting enough to use photographic film on. (And externally the LV sets looked very similar to the ubiquitous class 116)

the other one though ............
at first glance a bog-standard Metro-Camell class 101, but they were never common in London. But lurking in the shadows is evidence of a valence undxer the buffer beam, and rather more obviously the waist-height jumper cables on the front end, and what looks like a "yellow diamond" coupling code. This is one of the original "lightweight" dmus, most of which were allocated to Lincoln, Norwich and Bacup - but Stratford had two of them. They were all withdrawn by 1968 (The Beeching cuts had resulted in a surplus of dmus, and these, along with the Lea Valley sets, were selected for withdrawal because of their non-standard coupling arrangements). This one is remarkable as the nearer car is in Rail Blue, (with the new BR logo) which only replaced green as standard for dmus in 1966 - the further car appears to still be in lined green. Given their early withdrawal, I am surprised any of them were ever painted blue in the first place, let alone caught on a colour photo! However, it would appear that Stratford were fairly quick off the mark, as the Lea Valley unit is also in blue.

Sorry - third pic is the one I originally sent.
Glad you all liked these
I have another photo from PH, which was being sent to a local historical journal, which shows in the distance, the set in harlequin form - one car green the other blue. How much better the original looks, IMO!
So here is my link to that, for londonstuff to doctor.
onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3A57A4660877D435!273&authkey=!AFCPVtZz8i8FtCU&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg
PH says he also has a super 8 colour cine film of these workings but no means of digitising it

Decaded - thanks vm. I'd never have thought of that. This is probably of a relic of the days when it was intended to work the main service from Loughton west, and serve Epping and Ongar by 4 car shuttles - which was never done. Wonder when 23A was abolished?

Shuttles most definitely did run
www.lurs.org.uk/articles12_htm_files/2012%2008%20points%20of%20interest.pdf
(second article, the first is unrelated)

This is what the 1935 stock was used for (although the photo in the article is from shortly after electrification, when standard stock was used). Two car (later augmented to three), rather than four, was the norm.

I think in the early days of electrification, Debden was where most of the trains from London terminated.

Much more information directly relevant to this thread can be found at this Loughton and District Historical Society newsletter

www.theydon.org.uk/lhs/Downloads/LHS%20News%20178.pdf

The article also details a school trip during the morning rush hour where the school children travelled on a non-stop steam train through stations thronged with commuters waiting for Central Line trains to central London. (I wish I'd been there with a camera!!!  )

What is perhaps the most amazing thing which occurred during this twilight of mainline trains on this route is what happened between Woodford station and Woodford Junction.

At some stage in the early 1960s this section of railway (plus the route through to Hainault) started hosting trials of self-driving trains. Eventually every Victoria Line 1967 tube stock train was used here, prior to (and even after) the opening of the Victoria Line.

So, what this means is that BR trains travelled on a section of railway which was also being used by self-driving Underground trains. Certainly this applies to the Sunday diesel multiple units but depending on the time frame possibly also diesel (or even steam?) hauled goods trains - the latter possibly even travelling all the way round the Hainault loop to Newbury Park.

What I am not sure about is whether any automatic trains were running at the exact same times of day as the mainline trains... perhaps even passing each other whilst in motion.

I feel sure however that there were no no safety cases or other time consuming causes of paralysis by analysis such as are usual 'today'.

Simon

edit to add: Some photos of first generation DMU's such as those which might have operated over Central Line tracks  can be found at the link below. These are seen at Stratford low level in the days when the North Woolwich service was diesel powered, I dont recall for sure possibly this was after they had been extended to Camden Road. Filmed using a 110 camera, so alas a little grainy.

citytransport.info/DMU.htm

The 105 in the first picture is sporting a "Camden Road" destination blind, so is certainly after the "North London Link" was launched in the eighties. Although 105s were certainly regular fare on the North Woolwich line in the late 1970s, when it still ran to Tottenham Hale, I don't think there were any 104s in London until very late in their careers, so I guess thatpicture is also from the 1980s.

However, I don't think either class was operated by Stratford as early as the 1960s, so their appearance at Loughton would have been unlikely.

1. NF, didn't this service restart in 1979, not the 80s? Think it was at first called the crosstown link or some such.
Presumably Stratford would have had to commission new blinds, as they hadn't run to Camden Rd in DMU days.
2. I think the last time I travelled on the Lea Bridge-Hall Farm line, Oct 1964, when the Chingford Branch juice was shut off for a w/e, it was in a Derby lightweight, 2 x 2-car units. Would that be right?
3. Quite right re the Cravens, but they were hardly revolutionary!

I've been doing a little reading of Underground News, as published by the London Underground Railway Society.

UN632 August 2014 p389/390 talks about diesel trains on various branches, inc Chesham and BR services to Epping, etc. Says that DMU's started to arrive at Stratford in 1956, these had Epping and Ongar included in their destinations. But because the Ongar service was electrified in 1957 so the shuttle remained steam to the end.

The last nocturnal BR passenger DMU ran 5th October 1970, it was a class 125 as used on the Lea Valley lines.

UN600 DEC 2011 p730 says that the 1967 Tube Stock trains first entered service on the Central Line on 21st Feb 1968. This means that they are unlikely to have encountered any goods trains - but they were in service at the same time as the passenger DMU's.

I cant image what ordinary people would be say if the DMU's had still be in service today - that is, after having actually encountered one of them. What I do know is the utterly astonished look on the faces of the unaware passengers (tourists with heavy suitcases who had just arrived in London on a Eurostar train) which I saw at Kings Cross station in early 2013 when the steam train came through. Especially when Met. No.1 was leading!

However, perhaps travelling on the diesels would have been included in the "must do" tick box list for transport enthusiasts?

Exactly how present-day ATO would cope is something I'll leave for the experts to ponder.

Simon

Re freight trains round to Newbury Park, I remember reading somewhere that a Southern region class 33 actually made it to N P -reversing in the stub of the line to Seven Kings.