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Post by flippyff on May 20, 2015 6:55:30 GMT
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on May 20, 2015 8:39:59 GMT
Signs pointing to platforms at Stratford now say 'TFL rail' platforms 5 & 8
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Post by trt on May 20, 2015 9:00:02 GMT
TfLon rail? Watch out for adhesion problems.
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Post by stapler on May 20, 2015 12:39:24 GMT
Thanks for that. This section says <<Outside London Of the stations transferring to TfL Rail on 31 May 2015, one of them - Shenfield in Essex - is located outside London. We have included this station because it would have been impractical to take over the London part of this route only. >> What about Brentwood? TFL rail seem to have forgotten it! |
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 20, 2015 13:53:22 GMT
What about Brentwood? TFL rail seem to have forgotten it! Brentwood will be in fare zone 9. Shenfield will be outside the fare zones but will still be within the Oyster PAYG area. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 20, 2015 16:16:39 GMT
What about Brentwood? TFL rail seem to have forgotten it! Brentwood will be in fare zone 9. Shenfield will be outside the fare zones but will still be within the Oyster PAYG area. Indeed, but Shenfield is not the only TfL Rail station in Essex as the TfL site claims - the GLA boundary is between Brentwood and Harold Wood |
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Post by stapler on May 20, 2015 22:20:03 GMT
Brentwood will be in fare zone 9. Shenfield will be outside the fare zones but will still be within the Oyster PAYG area. Indeed, but Shenfield is not the only TfL Rail station in Essex as the TfL site claims - the GLA boundary is between Brentwood and Harold Wood That's what I meant, flyer; and not sure why Brentwood should have the dubious privilege of Zone 9 when Epping (not so very different in distance) is in Zone 6....... No wonder all Essex drives to Epping and clogs it up entirely with parked cars |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 20, 2015 22:28:43 GMT
Indeed, but Shenfield is not the only TfL Rail station in Essex as the TfL site claims - That's what I meant, I know - it's the TfL site that has got it wrong |
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Post by snoggle on May 21, 2015 12:01:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 12:56:46 GMT
I noticed a couple of 315s with blue doors rather than red on Saturday. Presumably these will be going to the Crossrail side (assuming they split the fleet into dedicated Crossrail and West Anglia fleets).
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 16:22:29 GMT
Brentwood will be in fare zone 9. Looking at the fares chart though it seems that although Brentwood will be in zone 9, a Brentwood premium will effectively apply and a journey from Zone 1 to Brentwood will be 60p more expensive than a standard journey from zone 1 to zone 9 at peak times and 10p more expensive off peak. The link does say that this is due to government fare policy requirements (which I believe are to shift the burden to the fare payer away from the taxpayer). I'm not quite sure why they didn't just leave Brentwood outside the zones and say "Special fares apply from this station" rather than have a different Z1-9 fare. |
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Post by bicbasher on May 21, 2015 17:26:30 GMT
Good to see TfL are keeping NR prices for most journeys to and from London Liverpool Street. This is in keeping with the policy on the ELL between Shoreditch High Street and other core stations where it's cheaper to charge at the NR than the TfL rate.
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Post by snoggle on May 21, 2015 17:46:12 GMT
Good to see TfL are keeping NR prices for most journeys to and from London Liverpool Street. This is in keeping with the policy on the ELL between Shoreditch High Street and other core stations where it's cheaper to charge at the NR than the TfL rate. Yes I'd seen speculation that the Walthamstow Central - Liv St fare would increase to £2.80 off peak to match the tube fare. However it's clear, as you say, that TfL are maintaining a separate fare. It's also noteworthy that there is the statement of "no tickets are being withdrawn" which must cover the long standing point to point seasons on these lines in to Liverpool Street. Past practice has been to scrap such tickets and require Travelcards to be bought but it seems the level of concern over recent months, including from MPs like IDS, has brought sufficient pressure to bear. |
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Post by bicbasher on May 21, 2015 23:46:39 GMT
There will be a fares oddity in comparison to the rest of the TfL rail network with these services, especially on local journeys outside Zone 1.
While some fares will be £1.50 off-peak for two zones (Walthamstow to Highams Park, Stratford to Ilford), others don't change at all. So for example, I can travel from Forest Hill to Epping for £1.50, yet Forest Hill to Romford will be £2.60, which is the same as now.
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Post by snoggle on May 22, 2015 11:05:15 GMT
The Mayoral Decision document that signs off the Fares Changes for the TfL Rail and Overground services starting on 31/5/15 has been published. It sets out in some detail the reasoning for the slightly different fares that have had to be adopted on these routes. TfL fares advice document has also been released. Mayoral Decision webpageMayoral Decision pdfTfL Fares Advice documentI haven't read them in detail yet but it looks like interesting stuff for the fares geeks.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 20:17:46 GMT
It's nice to see a Fares CUT for a change - well done to TFL!
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Post by spsmiler on May 22, 2015 21:02:17 GMT
Delighted to see that at very long last the fares for passengers without Travelcards (which nowadays means PAYG passengers) to Ilford will be the same as those to Gants Hill. Both are in Zone 4.
Simon
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Post by pridley on May 22, 2015 21:04:48 GMT
Indeed, but Shenfield is not the only TfL Rail station in Essex as the TfL site claims - the GLA boundary is between Brentwood and Harold Wood That's what I meant, flyer; and not sure why Brentwood should have the dubious privilege of Zone 9 when Epping (not so very different in distance) is in Zone 6....... No wonder all Essex drives to Epping and clogs it up entirely with parked cars There is an agreement with Network Rail regarding Crossrail prices, presumably so as to not completely shame the Franchise holders with the normal TFL good value. |
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Post by spsmiler on May 22, 2015 21:32:58 GMT
Talking of Brentwood, they are indeed getting a raw deal from the railway.
Until services were recast they benefited from 1st and standard class trains which on almost all journeys to London off-peak missed out 6 intermediate stations (Chadwall Heath, Goodmayes, Seven Kings, Manor Park, Forest Gate and Maryland). Now their trains call at all stations, significantly increasing journey times to London. Unless that is they change trains at Romford.
However, will their tickets still be valid if they do change to AGA trains Romford?
Prior to the services being recast their rush hour services included many trains which called at just two intermediate stations - Stratford and Harold Wood - and took just 30 minutes. Many, but not all. The slowest trains (and I saw very few of these) called at all stations and took 40 minutes. There were some other stopping combinations as well.
Simon
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 22, 2015 21:41:40 GMT
However, will their tickets still be valid if they do change to AGA trains Romford? I don't see why not - after all there won't be different AGA and TfL fares between Romford and Liv St. |
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Post by spsmiler on May 22, 2015 21:56:43 GMT
However, will their tickets still be valid if they do change to AGA trains Romford? I don't see why not - after all there won't be different AGA and TfL fares between Romford and Liv St. So it wont be like TfL fares to Watford Junction which (from what I gather, reading online) are not valid on LM trains? Simon |
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Post by snoggle on May 22, 2015 23:13:35 GMT
However, will their tickets still be valid if they do change to AGA trains Romford? I don't see why not - after all there won't be different AGA and TfL fares between Romford and Liv St. But it is not clear to me (I'm still reading the Mayoral Decision papers) as to whether people using concession tickets in the AM peak can legitimately change from a TfL Rail to a AGA service at Romford. I suspect they can't. You certainly can't change from an Overground train to a Southern or Thameslink train on the Brighton Mail Line in the AM peak if travelling on a Freedom Pass or 60+ Pass. You can't use a Freedom Pass or 60+ Pass from Harrow and Wealdstone to Watford Junction on a Southern or London Midland train. It's Overground only. TfL Staff Passes aren't valid on Southern's service to Watford Junction, even from Harrow, although they are valid on London Midland and Overground - it's all mad even if it is tied in with railway history. I see TfL have put a fares page up about the transferring services. One relevant bit about faster AGA services is this I'm not quite sure the above bit about Freedom Passes is quite right as it suggests that faster AGA trains that stop at Romford off peak are not available for use by Freedom Pass etc holders. I think that must be wrong as there is no carve out today for such journeys. It does suggest though that the concessionary passes CANNOT be used from Shenfield or Cheshunt on fast / semi fast AGA services at any time. |
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Post by snoggle on May 23, 2015 0:45:04 GMT
That's what I meant, flyer; and not sure why Brentwood should have the dubious privilege of Zone 9 when Epping (not so very different in distance) is in Zone 6....... No wonder all Essex drives to Epping and clogs it up entirely with parked cars There is an agreement with Network Rail regarding Crossrail prices, presumably so as to not completely shame the Franchise holders with the normal TFL good value. Wrong I'm afraid. Network Rail have no role in fares matters. Having spent hours reading the relevant documents and digging the Crossrail Sponsors Agreement out of the House of Commons Library (online) it is clear that TfL have had to agree to a series of undertakings with the DfT. The basic gist of those undertakings is that TfL cannot act unilaterally in setting fares on Crossrail in a way that may create issues for parallel TOC operators. In short it can't undercut them nor create split ticketing opportunities or other anomolies that might affect the viability of the franchised TOCs. Therefore there is absolutely no issue of TfL "shaming" the TOCs. In fact I'd argue that TfL are "under the cosh" and have to follow whatever the TOCs decide to do. Approval has to be sought from the Secretary of State for fares set by TfL which may affect parallel TOC services. TfL themselves have said that these sorts of policy issues are likely to come in to play if further TOC services are transferred to TfL at a later date. Therefore people hoping for massive fare cuts down to the TfL fare scale if their TOC services transfer to TfL at some point in the future are likely to be disappointed. TfL can't create a "cheap fares" area in London which then creates massive step changes in fares once people cross the zonal boundary. Anyone hoping for bargain basement fares to Maidenhead or Reading are likely to be very disappointed come 2019! I expect the same applies in respect of Heathrow where there is the added complication of paying the track access fee to HAL. It is also worth noting that although TfL PAYG fares will apply between Tottenham Hale and Cheshunt from 31 May 2015 TfL has had to agree to compensate Greater Anglia for revenue losses. TfL have estimated that this may be £1m for the current financial year. Read Appendix B of this document if you need convincing. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 23, 2015 6:19:27 GMT
So it wont be like TfL fares to Watford Junction which (from what I gather, reading online) are not valid on LM trains? As understand it, Romford will be more like Wembley Central - an outer London stop by non-TfL trains, on which TfL fares apply. Shenfield will be like Watford Junction - an out-of-London terminus of a TfL service, where TfL fares will apply for local services, but NR fares for the end-to-end run to the London terminus. I'm afraid the complexities of Freedom Passes are beyond my little brain. Perhaps by the time I'm old enough to need to know, I'll be wise enough to understand. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 23, 2015 6:24:52 GMT
Delighted to see that at very long last the fares for passengers without Travelcards (which nowadays means PAYG passengers) to Ilford will be the same as those to Gants Hill. Both are in Zone 4. There are plenty of such anomalies, even between the same pair of stations. London Bridge to West Croydon is cheaper via Canada Water than direct. Likewise Waterloo to Richmond is cheaper via Westminster. Waterloo to Strawberry Hill is cheaper via Richmond than it is via Kingston. |
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Post by Chris M on May 23, 2015 9:42:27 GMT
Woolwich to Greenwich or Lewisham is (or was when I lived there) cheaper via Canary Wharf than direct
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Post by peterc on May 23, 2015 11:14:27 GMT
The changes were quite a while ago now. The off peak change was from 3 tph semi fast to 6 tph stopping. They do get a much worse deal with the Metro peak service, 7 tph mostly all stations to Ilford rather than 6 fast and 6 stoppers.
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Post by stapler on May 23, 2015 11:52:40 GMT
That, together with much cheaper fares from Epping, are doubtless why the Brentwood station car park is never full when I see it!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 12:15:32 GMT
The off peak change was from 3 tph semi fast to 6 tph stopping. When the new timetable was introduced in 1998 some metro services didn't stop between Ilford and Stratford even off peak. This however resulted in an incovenient service pattern for Manor Park, Forest Gate and Maryland and and this was changed in 2004 called at all stations off peak. |
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Post by pridley on May 23, 2015 13:00:59 GMT
There is an agreement with Network Rail regarding Crossrail prices, presumably so as to not completely shame the Franchise holders with the normal TFL good value. "Wrong I'm afraid." "Therefore there is absolutely no issue of TfL "shaming" the TOCs." We are essentially stating the same thing, using different words. I would say that TFL being able to set fares in TOC zones puts the entire Franchise system to shame. People call it privatization, but it is not. It is modeled on economic fascism, where you merge corporate and state powers (this was Mussolini's definition of economic fascism), and that really is the franchise model, where risks are socialised, investments are largely socialised and hugely curtailed and profits are privatised and significant with the private sector having little to no obligation or incentive to improve and invest in infrastructure and hardly any responsibility or ability to respond to demand. The prime incentive under this system is to extract as much profit as possible prior to the franchise end date. In a truly privatised system, the owner would have incentive to invest in infrastructure and long term patronage, both to maintain share price and increase long term yield, whereas with a franchise, once the initially agreed investment is satisfied, all profits go out the back door with the TOC's having no long term interest in infrastructure. This is similar to the Socialist TFL solution due to long term ownership and accountability. Both TFL and the truly private owner have a long term stake in infrastructure and their customers, whereas the Franchise holder has a very short term interest and the next franchise award in many ways is beyond their control. With TFL, there is no profit going out the back door, it all gets re-cycled. Some may argue that this is better than privatisation, however, with true privatisation (not fascist franchising), yes, profit will leave the system, but at the same time, companies can canvass for investment and so expansion can be more viable. Frankly, if a local rail company came to me offering 5% bonds plus a viable business plan to build services in my area, I would invest some of my money and they would have access to global capital markets. Indeed, most of our railways were built this way during the 19th century under a truly private, free enterprise "system". Allowing TFL to set fares would completely expose and puts to shame the utter failure of the franchise system vs a true socialist model (TFL) and a fully privatised capitalist system (our original 19th Century rail model). But the trend is unstoppable, TFL has developed itself a niche and will chip away at the Franchise system over time. These price agreements only strengthen TFL by allowing it to amass yet more cash to re-invest and so in the long run, maybe 10 maybe 50yrs time, it will become patently obvious that franchising is not the way to develop a world class railway for Britain. I just wonder whether, over the next hundred years or so, entrepreneurs may enter the market again, though the only private railways right now (other than Heathrow Connect?) are the heritage railways! But who knows, once "vintage" 1930's trains (Check the Isle of Wight BR railway) become all the rage, maybe heritage rail can compete! |
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