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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 12, 2014 16:25:21 GMT
I am planning to, in the future, build a module/layout/diorama of Highgate High Level as it might have looked had it actually become a Northern Line station. Maybe not a 100% accurate model as not everything is available in 00-gauge. The original station building for example, i don't think that's available. I got the idea after visiting the station when i was in London in August.  However, is there anything special i should think about? It's going to be a post-1967 representation, so i won't include any of the 1880's buildings. But are there any other details i should add or remove? Keep in mind that in this model the station will never have been closed, so i know of a few obvious ones. I have already placed an order for a custom repainted 1959-stock car showing Highgate as the destination. I only chose Highgate as Alexandra Palace wasn't available. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 12, 2014 21:36:00 GMT
This looks like a nice idea for a layout. I'm sure we're all looking forward to seeing progress on this.
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 12, 2014 22:52:13 GMT
Don't hold your breath. There are a number of things i have to get sorted out first, but i will go through with this asap.
For the time being this is just research.
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 12, 2014 23:02:41 GMT
I am planning to, in the future, build a module/layout/diorama of Highgate High Level as it might have looked had it actually become a Northern Line station. Maybe not a 100% accurate model as not everything is available in 00-gauge. The original station building for example, i don't think that's available. I got the idea after visiting the station when i was in London in August. However, is there anything special i should think about? It's going to be a post-1967 representation, so i won't include any of the 1880's buildings. But are there any other details i should add or remove? Keep in mind that in this model the station will never have been closed, so i know of a few obvious ones. I have already placed an order for a custom repainted 1959-stock car showing Highgate as the destination. I only chose Highgate as Alexandra Palace wasn't available. Sure you know the history of the Northern Heights extensions backwards. Having said that, I'd concentrate on post-1967 shots of Mill Hill East (which was meant to be an intermediate station to Bushey etc.) and somewhere intermediate on the High Barnet branch, which came into operation intact in 1940. That will give you two ex-GNR stations with some pre-war features still there, both of which would, if you find the right photos, give you a very good impression of what a Highgate High Level LT station would have looked like at the time you want. And congratulations on the idea-brilliant, good luck with it. |
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 12, 2014 23:11:06 GMT
Sure you know the history of the Northern Heights extensions backwards. I'm not sure i understand what you mean by that. Having said that, I'd concentrate on post-1967 shots of Mill Hill East (which was meant to be an intermediate station to Bushey etc.) and somewhere intermediate on the High Barnet branch, which came into operation intact in 1940. That will give you two ex-GNR stations with some pre-war features still there, both of which would, if you find the right photos, give you a very good impression of what a Highgate High Level LT station would have looked like at the time you want. Thanks for your advice! And congratulations on the idea-brilliant, good luck with it. Thanks mate.  |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 13, 2014 12:03:19 GMT
If needed, I can help with the signalling diagrams. I have various scale plans for the signals. In fact, my signature is based on the signals approaching Highgate High Level!
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 13, 2014 12:40:18 GMT
Somebody's started a Highgate high level station (if tube trains had ever reached there) by the looks of this video. Obviously still a work in progress but captures the look of the place quite nicely so far!
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 13, 2014 22:42:12 GMT
For rolling stock you are going to be using 1938 stock. This started to be replaced in the 1970s by 1972 stock (both MK 1 and 2) and was then joined by 1956/59 stock from the late 1970s by which time the 33 trains of 1972 mk2 had gone to the Bakerloo/Jubilee line. Depending on the time period set you can bring the 1938 stock back into the fray in the late 80s!
Thankfully you have the option of some DMUs and plenty of engineering stock.
Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 0:18:21 GMT
One of the things about modelling based on what didn't happen in history, is that you can incorporate other things that didn't happen... (like different stock changes)
Had the Northern Heights come to fruition, the Northern would have needed more trains than in reality: what would they have been? AIUI there would have been more standard stock for the GNC (Moorgate branch) service - through Highgate HL. Or would there have have been more 1938 type stock? Or what would have replaced the standard stock, and when? Some 1959 type stock?
Your model - your choice...
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 14, 2014 0:32:32 GMT
Thanks for your suggestions, everyone! mrfs42: That would come in handy if i decide to build a larger layout including Highgate HL, so that would be more than welcome! whistlekiller2000: Yes, and although fictional aswell, that layout is a little different than the one i had in mind. I am hoping to get as close as possible to the real thing with my limited experience, funds and lack of available station buildings. Therefore i am planning to include the two original, overgrown platforms, cables, and hopefully tunnel entrances plus a short tunnel. metman: I will be using first 1959-stock first hand, though i might buy more stock as time goes by. Keep in mind though that this is planned as a module, and will in that case be displayed on shows. So you might see more than UK trains on it. Telling me what to use will only get you so far.  However, like i said, i am planning on giving it a post-1967 look, so 1938-stock is more than welcome. And maybe even some 1995-stock, who knows? etr220: I like your idea of using standard stock, my friend. And believe me when i say that i would love to have some standard stock trains in operation. Sadly i am no good with kits, so that will have to wait. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 9:04:06 GMT
RtR standard stock we can but hope
Mind you a few years ago who would have thought we would get 38 and 59 stock all be it that it needed motors fitting, and a range of RtR Met locos so you never know what the future might bring. As manufacturers look around for new ideas it might just happen. Back in the 60's Triang were saying "no market for RtR SR EMU's" now look what we have
Fingers crossed
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Post by Tomcakes on Nov 14, 2014 13:44:38 GMT
I'm sure you have plenty, but if you require any photos of the area (as visible from public areas!) I am not far away.
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 14, 2014 14:27:58 GMT
lulfan: Fingers crossed indeed!
Tomcakes: I don't have many pics myself, i only took two when i was there. I wish i had taken more, but i can't go back in time. But i'll let you know if i require any photos.
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 15, 2014 8:28:16 GMT
I would imagine that if the northern heights plans had been completed the 15 trains of 1938 stock would have not gone to the Piccadilly but the northern instead. The northern city stock would then ended up on the Piccadilly line. More 1949 stock may have been ordered eventually too if there was a shortfall.
However you can put whatever stock on your layout. That's half the fun of modelling.
Radley models do standard stock although they are kits. They do the option of ready to run but that will cost extra!!
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 15, 2014 14:12:09 GMT
You've got that right, metman. I can drive what i want. But i will stick to the stock used on the Northern Line. Standard stock might be an exception, but that would be the only one. Unless i decide to check out what it would look like had it become a Met station, like someone suggested over at another forum. Radley models do standard stock although they are kits. They do the option of ready to run but that will cost extra!! Yeah, £100 for them to build it. However i kind of want to build it myself as i've been told i should replace the original Radley bogies. But then we're back at square one as i suck at that. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 15, 2014 15:31:28 GMT
i will stick to the stock used on the Northern Line. Standard stock might be an exception, . Standard stock did run on the Northern Line, although mosyt of it had gone by the time the Highgate line would have been opened. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Hendon_Central_station,_underground_railway_above_ground_(CJ_Allen,_Steel_Highway,_1928).jpg However, it worked the Moorgate-Finsbury Park section of what would have become the Moorgate - Ally Pally route through Highgate High Level until 1964. |
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 15, 2014 16:11:10 GMT
i will stick to the stock used on the Northern Line. Standard stock might be an exception, . Standard stock did run on the Northern Line, although mosyt of it had gone by the time the Highgate line would have been opened. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Hendon_Central_station,_underground_railway_above_ground_(CJ_Allen,_Steel_Highway,_1928).jpg However, it worked the Moorgate-Finsbury Park section of what would have become the Moorgate - Ally Pally route through Highgate High Level until 1964. I meant to say "on the Northern Line in my timeframe." Then the Standard stock would've been the only exception. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 16, 2014 18:50:34 GMT
I don't have any of their standard stock so I can't comment although I don't see why the standard stock bogies need be replaced though?
The V2 trailer bogies are such a short wheelbase I wish anyone luck trying to find replacements!
I'm hoping to order a 1927 trailer in the new year to run with my 1938 stock so I'll find out soon enough!
I'd always recommend giving kits a go yourself. You'll never learn otherwise. I love to build the kits myself so I can stamp my personal touches on the finished models.
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 17, 2014 1:33:51 GMT
I don't have any of their standard stock so I can't comment although I don't see why the standard stock bogies need be replaced though? The V2 trailer bogies are such a short wheelbase I wish anyone luck trying to find replacements! I'm hoping to order a 1927 trailer in the new year to run with my 1938 stock so I'll find out soon enough! Well, i wish you luck. I was actually recommended i replace them with Metromodels bogies. I don't know if they were modified in any way, other than the Radley bogie sides being glued on. I'd always recommend giving kits a go yourself. You'll never learn otherwise. I love to build the kits myself so I can stamp my personal touches on the finished models. Well, that's true. However, after having built a number of model aircraft kits i can tell you that my skills have not exactly improved. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 14:33:11 GMT
This is it the kits are not cheap and even if they are made up by an expert the finished thing often looks less good than the RtR version (if it is made)
If someone has the money, skill, time to make a kit then that is great but many of us do not and prefer to buy our models RtR
I have yet to see a pic of the Met BoBo made from a kit that looks even 50% as good as the pre launch pics of the Heljan RtR model due 2015
so often the kits are spoilt by over heavy detail, poor transfers and or paintwork or just do not look quite right
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 17, 2014 15:53:46 GMT
just do not look quite right Well, that's one thing i've noticed in the photos i've seen of the Radley standard stock kits. To me they look too short, and too high above the ground. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 16:12:22 GMT
Hi
Yes you are right spot on, I saw a pic once of a standard stock car kit between 2 EFE 38 cars and the kit stuck out like a sore thumb.
and the underlined London TransporT logo is not in the right font. small thing but when you consider the cost of the kits it needs to be right
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 17, 2014 16:35:46 GMT
Considering the small size of the text, i can't really say the font is a big issue for me.
But about that picture, i spoke to the owner of those cars and he is the one who recommended i change the bogies. That could be the reason why his 1927 car is a bit high. However, even in Radley's own photos they look too high. He also mentioned that his car is the older version which was why it looked so "chunky" as he put it. I don't know if that has improved since he bought his.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 18:02:08 GMT
the "Q STOCK DRIVER POWERED" on the sellers site also looks to be riding high on the bogies
at £95 per car and then to have to buy new bogies and if you want it rtr another £100 (i guess that is per car) a 3 car set will cost over £500 that is a whole lot of money for a model that still may not be as good as it should be.
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 17, 2014 18:39:46 GMT
This is what it looked like in 1941:  Sorry not in colour, but that's probably as well, given the soot stains on those awnings!! |
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 17, 2014 18:54:08 GMT
The standard stock cars do look a little high. The problem is the EFE cars ride very low, to scale height however.
The problem for tube stock is that the bogies sit within the body which means scale curves and points are required to be really accurate.
I'm going to have a look at the standard stock bogies to see if they can be lowered to match the 1938 stock and 1960 stock they ride with. I wouldn't bother with metro models bogies for standard stock because the centres are way out and I'm not sure they would fit although I haven't tried them. The trailer bogie wheel base is about 22mm.
The Q stock doesn't seem too bad. I have Q23, Q27, Q31 and CO/CP cars and they are ok.
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 17, 2014 20:34:59 GMT
lulfan: It is a lot of money. And i thought one purpose of kits was to make them cheaper than the ready made products. theblackferret: In the timeframe i'm hoping to model the building closes to the camera will have been torn down. For better and for worse. It's a good looking little house, but there are to my knowledge no kits of it. metman: It would be great if they could be modified so they ride at the same height. As for the Metromodels bogies, this is the picture that i have been referring to. According to the photographer, who also owns the cars, the standard stock trailer is riding on Metromodels bogies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 20:45:43 GMT
Hi
I have got 2 metromodels efe modded 4 car sets 38 and 59 and they run just fine over the sharpest peco electrofrog points and yes I agree kits should be cheaper than rtr
I have read that some of the kits we are talking of here have never been improved or updated since they came on the market in the 1970's if that is true then they are long over due for an upgrade or a drastic price reduction, after 40y the start up costs must have been made back many times over
theblackferret - I love the pic
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 17, 2014 20:47:29 GMT
Yeh, this is how it looked in May 1968 (photo by Nick Catford, site disused-stations.org.uk)!  Colour, too, this time. even the weeds! |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 17, 2014 22:22:13 GMT
lulfan: It is a lot of money. And i thought one purpose of kits was to make them cheaper than the ready made products. theblackferret: In the timeframe i'm hoping to model the building closes to the camera will have been torn down. For better and for worse. It's a good looking little house, but there are to my knowledge no kits of it. metman: It would be great if they could be modified so they ride at the same height. As for the Metromodels bogies, this is the picture that i have been referring to. According to the photographer, who also owns the cars, the standard stock trailer is riding on Metromodels bogies. I used to build model aeroplanes in 1:48th scale. Most of the subjects were obscure 1930s biplanes used by the US Navy and as such were all extremely expensive due to the lack of mass market appeal. Sadly, we have to acknowledge that model tube trains in the detail we'd like are a very small niche requirement and will always be at the higher end of price list as tooling costs are divided between far fewer end products. The ready made items are easier to get into relatively large scale production as they appeal to a greater audience who don't have the skills necessary to construct something, the tourist market being a particularly good target. The light on the horizon is the growth in 3D printing which will start to address the cost problem more seriously. Indeed, there are several threads on here featuring such pioneering stuff and while some of the early attempts are a little lacking in detail, this can only improve as the process is refined. |
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