Rest Breaks

Where a person chooses to live is of no concern to LU.

There has to be a generic rule to cover all staff and its dead simple - minimum 12 hours from book off to book on.

Wrong! So so wrong!

Should any employee have an incident leading to accident, injury or fatality to him/herself or a third party and that employee was found to be responsible, the fault would be compounded by lack of a clear 12 hours rest between shifts. Rest does not include the travelling time to and from booking on point. Under H&S law not only would the employee be open to prosecution but so would his/her supervisor or manager. Ignorance is no excuse and it really is time that managers paid full attention to the letter of the law as the penalty for ignorance could be a hefty fine or imprisonment!

It is 12 hours between booking off to booking on and in our area it is enforced. There is a exception though in a emergency (nothing is stated though exactly what is) this can be reduced to 8 hours.

Exactly, far too many workers seem to be ill informed about the potential consequences of an incident or accident when it is being investigated following the event. Managers seem particularly unaware of their responsibilities under the H&S laws. It is probably obvious to most that if a manager or supervisor allowed an employee to book on duty under the influence of drink or drugs s/he COULD also be held to account and be found just as culpable. That said it is an unlikely but not impossible scenario.

Ignorance is no excuse, many people break the law on a daily basis with no thought whatever, how you may wonder. How often do you check the validity of your car insurance for example, if it doesn't specify commuting or only explicitly covers social, domestic and pleasure then in the event of a claim you may find that you aren't covered at all when travelling to and from work or worse, using your car when on duty to travel between sites and carrying workmates or company tools and materials etc. People tell lies to insurance companies all the time about the purpose of journeys and most probably get away with it.

So next time you're dropping off to sleep because you had a very late night before booking on for duty or something similar you shouldn't be surprised at the consequences should that result in some kind of incident. Back in the day we used to get up to all sorts that simply isn't sanctioned nowadays by employers and others who are ultimately held to account or have a duty to enforce the law.

The inquest into the death of a Red Arrows pilot yesterday concluded that the taking of 'Night Nurse' the previous evening contributed to the death.

I had initially chosen to ignore this thread after being told that as a current employee of London Underground I didn't know my own rules (its no wonder so many LU staff have left this forum!), however I cannot sit on my hands any longer.....

As you should know, there are several framework agreements between the Unions and London Underground - all state 12 hours from book off to book on. So you are suggesting that at this current moment in time - in fact for at least the last 15 years - those framework agreements have been breaking the law? I'm pretty certain both the Unions and London Underground know the law!

In terms of minimum periods off from work, LU is better most. Lorry and coach drivers working under EU driving rules are only required to have 11 hours between two consecutive working days and this can be reduced to 9 hours up to three times in a fixed week (though must be compensated for in the following week). Furthermore, how do you explain that for a bus driver working under UK domestic hours, the minimum between duties is 10 hours and that can be reduced to 8½ hours up to three times a week?


Exactly - which leaves me at a loss as to why this discussion is still rumbling on


Seems reasonable enough to me too (in fact my journey was often 2 hours each way when I was based at Acton Town), but if LU were to make such a stipulation and apply it along with the 12 hour rule as railtechnician reckons it should be, well staff left right & centre would automatically fall foul of the 12 hour rule and book late on a daily basis.

Lets say they book off at 0130 and they're in the next day book on at 1700 - nothing unusual about that at all.......so, 0130 + 2 hours travelling gets them home at 0330. Now you want to apply the 12 hour rule so that takes them 1530......add on two hours travelling time back and oh dear that's 17.30, late for work!!

It is 12 hours from book off to book on.

Look at what revupminster posted on the previous page:Obviously drivers cannot work 12 hour shifts but most other operational grades can and do work work overtime up to 12 hours - they can do this precisely because the 12 hour rule allows it!!


It goes without saying about conduct whilst wearing the uniform - that's common sense! In terms of drugs, alcohol, etc.......they don't tell us what we can and can't do - what they do do is advise us how we can ensure that we book for duty 100% free of the stuff. As an example, they cannot tell me what alcohol I can and cannot drink on my first day off of a 4 day long weekend, but their advice does kick in during the final 24 hours before book on thus ensuring I book on alcohol free.

Similarly there is guidance on medication, and if LU staff book on whilst still taking medication which isn't suitable for their role, well then they will either be found a more suitable job to do or be sent home.

None of this is new and has been in force for as long as I have worked for LU (nearly 13 years now).


How is that an example of an employer having the right to tell an employee what to? LU cannot legally tell me to stop my hobby of preserving buses (where I use dangerous power tools such as a grinders & welders), nor can they tell me I cannot go beach fishing - heaven forbid that I should stab myself on a filleting knife.......next you'll be saying they can tell me I cannot go on holiday by aeroplane in case it causes me to miss my return to work.

This really is getting silly now.


Quite true, but we're talking about time away from work not time at work.


I've not heard of anyone being asked how long it took them to arrive, but again you refer to being fatigued after a 12 hour shift at work whereas we're looking at time away from work.

Colin, my post was related to time away from work. In fact I specifically said it! (The bold is my emphasis.)



The problem is that most people think that the oft-quoted 12 hour rule is set in stone.
However, it is not the golden rule that people perceive it to be.

Part of my role as an LU Operational Manager involves the allocation of staff to safety critical tasks. This means that I have had to get familiar with LUs own rules on the subject. The LU standard actually states an absolute minimum of eleven hours rest; though the same standard (and I would expect, most of the framework agreements for various grades) says that the desired minimum rest period should be 12 hours. Notice the words 'minimum', and 'rest'; these have particular relevance!

The ORR also publishes some interesting guidance notes here. Appendix B makes particular reference to the risks associated with driving home after work.

One of the most common myths is that rest equals time between shifts. 'Time away from work' is not the same as 'rest'! If you need to drive home and to work, you are not resting, you are in effect undertaking a safety critical task. Therefore with a journey of 1 hour each way to/from work, to give an individual the required twelve hours rest they should be told to return fourteen hours later.

It is not "12 hours from book off to book on". It is a minimum of 12 hours under normal circumstances and an absolute minimum of 11 hours.

I can point you in the direction of the Chapter and Verse on the subject if you wish via PM.

Just to clarify, my point was purely about whether an employee is actually asleep or not (ie 'resting' as we are otherwise considering things) and not 'Drinks, drugs, Night Nurse, poppy seed rolls, good conduct whilst in uniform etc.' which, clearly, are another matter entirely. With the 'rest' period, the *employer* can only determine what time they leave and arrive at work, it is the *employees* responsibility under H&S law to be fit to undertake that work. An employer could, of course, challenge an employee's fitness on a given morning ...

My motives for asking the original question were that Jim would have had a pretty rough turn, standing for 5+ hours without relief or facilities at the location. I didn't know he was nights until Colin pointed it out. My point was that if you miss your next rostered turn due to a late book-off, for whatever reason, what happens next, is there the potenital to lose out financially, do you just work a short duty the day after and then go back to what you were rostered to on day 3, or is there the potential to keep getting put back later and later if a number of late finishes are incurred?

Would the same also occur if you were due to do a non-safety critical task on your next shift, say classroom-based training?

If you overrun on your last shift before leave, I guess you just get the standard overtime rate and no additional compensation for the reduced time off? Or is there some other agreement in cases like that?

Whilst I accept your point, first & foremost I am answerable to my managers and their interpretation of the agreements.

Thing is though, aside from 13 years of working for LU in various grades and always being told the same consistent thing (book off to book on), I've been asking around over the last couple of days - fellow drivers, Union reps, managers and stations colleagues - I've yet to find anyone that supports any view other than the one I've stated.

EDIT:

Thinking about my previous example, where I showed that somebody living two hours traveling time away would routinely book on late (4 + 12 = 16 hours required away from work......8 hour duty plus 30 min unpaid meal relief = 24½ hour day!).....

Surely LU, if they're to abide by the interpretation of those of you that are suggesting traveling to & from work must be included, must find out who lives the furthest away at a given location and then work out the roster based upon that person not breaking any rules and not thus routinely at risk of needing to book on late?

I'm all for that as it will definitely bring an end to 8 hour shifts at Upminster. In fact the further one moves away the less they can roster you at work!!

My car is not used for hire or reward (ie, I'm not carrying goods or passengers for payment, nor is it used for any other type of London Underground company business). I'm just a train driver.

There is also cover for commuting to & from work, which I do have. That cover isn't the same as above and is nothing to do with employers.

I’ve not been a H&S Rep since I left stations in August 2003 but from what I recall under the guidelines to the Railway (Safety Critical Work) Regulations 1994 (replaced by the Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006) the minimum rest period between shifts is 8 hours which I don’t think included travelling time. In order to cover that LUL and the unions agreed to a 12 hour break between shifts.

I could be wrong.......