72 Stock to Serve Until 2030's

Last Friday I had an interesting peak evening trip on the tube using sections of several central area lines. To say the least it calls into question the idea I have seen floated on here that the Bakerloo has slack capacity, and also emphasises the need for the Bakerloo stock to have a serious update or early replacement.

Leicester square to Charing Cross on the Northeren proved quick and easy even if it was standing room only. The northern line train arrived and departed very swiftly from very busy platforms. After a rather serious hike at Charing cross over to the Bakerloo platforms, I squeezed onto a very crowded platform for a train to Baker Street. The display showed three closely spaced services - +1 +3 and +5 minutes. Given the huge crowd I was not surprised the train crawled into the platform and then suffered an extended dwell time (presumably the reason why following services had bunched up). I managed to board at the front and after a while, the driver came on the tannoy and asked people to stand behind the yellow line (which seemed a physical impossibility with the platform still so crowded), and as his announcement was only inside the train had negligible affect on the crowd still on the platform.

Further annoy appeals were made by the platform staff and eventually the doors closed and we set off - after a dwell time of at least 4 minutes (so not ideal for a peak hours service).

The same extended dwell time occurred at all following stations (except regents park) with the drivers announcements evidently becoming increasingly stressed - eventually followed by a request for the platform staff to come to his cab - presumably to get them to make a further appeal over the platform speaker system for people to get behind the yellow line as he could not see it was safe to close the doors. By the time we reached Baker Street I guess we had a cumulative delay well over 10 minutes.

Switching to the Jubilee showed a marked contrast. The platform was equally crowded but the train hurtled into the platform, doors opened and a huge number alighted and even more squeezed on and we left within 90 seconds (84 actually).

The clear implication was IF TFL want to keep the current Bakerloo stock in use for an extended period, they need to go a lot further than a cosmetic overhaul. The most significant requirement is to retrofit the sort of in cab platform video displays which ensure the driver can actually see the whole length of the train (as installed on Northern and Jubilee). I guess the platform element of this spend will be somewhere in the TFL budget pipeline as but probably only happening when replacement rolling stock was provided. However if the current Bakerloo stock is now being expected to perform for many more years, with increasingly crowded central area stations, then retrofitting the current stock with the sort of in cab video kit would probably pay for itself simply by reducing dwell times and effectively allow a much more efficient despatch of trains from crowded platforms, and be a far cheaper way to improved capacity than the alternative of installing PEDs.

The do nothing option surely means these sort of extended dwell times during peak hour services on the Bakerloo are going to be an increasingly frequent occurrence.

This thread has been going for years. Well before "Brexit" was thought of. Why have you brought Brexit into this?

NIG - "They have platform monitors or mirrors same as Piccadilly line which do the same job as in cab monitors the only difference is you can see your the platform when moving away it sounds a bit like the driver was new or being very over cautious"

Thank you for this response - as it sort of explains how Jubilee and Northern trains were flowing well through very crowded platforms whilst the Bakerloo driver seemed far less confident.

I agree it probably makes little difference if drivers use CCTV or mirrors to get a clear view down the side of the train to decide when to close the doors. However your subsequent observation about drivers with CCTV still being able to see the platform when moving off seems very important.

Given our happy addiction to try and sue anyone else for accidents most often caused by our own stupidity, I am sure the inability for Bakerloo drivers to monitor the side of the train as they move off, is a real factor in extended dwell times - just in case someone has managed to get their bag, arm, head ... stuck outside and is being dragged along the platform. Inherently if the in cab kit can still supply the CCTV feed for the initial seconds after setting off, it should give the driver a chance to spot any problems and hit the brakes before an incident becomes too serious.

Given the projected growth in traffic in the central area, TFL need to think this one through. Currently Bakerloo drivers lack the ability to view the platform adequately as they move off, so on crowded platforms they inevitably get very exercised and trains are delayed if people consistently fail to stay behind the yellow line. This backs up following trains and obviously reduces line capacity, so doing low cost things to reduce/remove this problem makes sense even if they do not have the funds to replace the Bakerloo stock yet.

If TFL want to ensure reliable peak hour flows on the Bakerloo the options appear to be to somehow link the in cab announcement Tannoy system directly to the relevant platform speakers - so that people on the relevant platform can actually hear when a driver is telling them to stay behind the yellow lines or the train cannot depart! Alternatively at least for peak hours to significantly increase the actual platform staff on all the busy central area stations on the Bakerloo line whose main job will be to try and get people to stay behind the yellow lines, or just get someone to install decent quality CCTV now along all those central area platforms (a cost they will eventually face) and retrofit a compact in cab flat screen monitor to allow drivers to monitor the departure. Whilst I cannot find any photos of a refurbished Bakerloo cab, I cannot believe the cab is so crowded that it is impossible to find a suitable place to attach a small flat screen display to allow drivers to monitor the departure in much the same way drivers on the Northern and Jubilee do.

As for the spare capacity being contra-peak I had not realised that. However I suspect much of that potential would be lost if peak hour trains are all bunched up in the central area due to extended dwell times - in large part down to those pesky passengers not being willing or able to stand behind the yellow line.

The other issue that will be encountered with the 72TS is being able to supply the various equipment for in-cab OPO monitors. The trains are already at the limit of the available resources for things like this, which is requiring some thought for things like installing a CIS.

The S stock, and the Vic stock also have the benefit of the sensitive edge equipment which stops the train if anything is being dragged. (really clever system).

On S Stock the term is 'scanning', equal scanning of the road ahead and in-cab monitors as the train departs, the monitors will extinguish when the train has cleared station limits.

On the Northen some of my I/ops told me to adopt the nodding dog technique for the road ahead and opo monitors!

The Bakerloo receiving Batch One of the new trains is sensible, as any issues in service can be evaluated and hopefully cleared up, before the main production run batch commences. Ideally they should build three prototypes and run them on the Bakerloo line, and evaluate them in detail first. Remember the three initial prototypes on the 1935, then 1956, and then the 1986 stock? - a similar scheme could be used to test the new trains which are a major advance from today's technology.

Its nothing to do with being sued, its a case of whoever has responsibility for operating the doors not wanting to face possible criminal charges which could lead to a prison sentence

Try Baker Street platform 3 heading south - 8 separate images, sharp left hand bend on departure and the advance starter less than a train's length out of the platform, located on the inside of the bend. It has a repeater on the same head as the starter (invisible from a correctly berthed S Stock) but not on the starter's co-actor. Fortunately it's usually off by the time it's reached.

The training instructions for drivers of S Stock trains state that time spent scanning the monitors should decrease and road observation should increase proportionately as the train leaves the platform. Plenty of locations on the SSL where equal measures of both until the train has left the platform is a SPAD in the making.

Well I hope so - I do hope that the Three Prototypes method will be used again here, just like they once did in 1935, 1956, and 1986.

Well the 1986 stock didn't exactly lead to a great production train (1992 stock).