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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2013 14:10:31 GMT
Just wondering what links exist or used to exist to the mainline network.
I am listing them by line, would be grateful for corrections
Bakerloo
Queens park
Central
West Ruislip
Now removed: Layton, white city, Ealing Broadway
District
Richmond, Gunnersbury, Wimbledon, East Putney
Now Removed: Ealing Broadway, Bow road, Barking, Upminster, Addison Road, Studland road.
East London
All now been removed, but some reinstated: New Cross, New Cross Gate, Shoreditch.
Metropolitan
Amersham, Harrow.
Now removed: Links to Widened lines at Farringdon and Moorgate, Links to main line at Paddington (included it here as it was Metropolitan when it existed.)
Northern
Now removed: Link from East Finchley to Finsbury Park.
Piccadilly
None ever existed.
Victoria
Tempory link at Northumberland park for delivery of rolling stock
Any I have not got?
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Post by domh245 on Aug 17, 2013 15:04:41 GMT
I'm not 100% sure but I think there was a point when Morden depot was connected to a freight line that was used to deliver milk to a nearby dairy (both the track and the dairy were demolished when the mosque was built). I believe that this freight line did connect to the mainline as well, but I may be wrong.
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Post by v52gc on Aug 17, 2013 15:06:42 GMT
There were a few around Hammersmith.
Possibly South Acton and maybe West Brompton (really not sure about the latter).
Newbury Park on the Central for a short time?
East Finchley on the Northern towards Finsbury Park.
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Aug 17, 2013 15:12:04 GMT
It looks like a good list.
Historically, the District Railway also connected to the LSWR at Turnham Green, as the line from there towards Acton left the LSWR line that the District had joined at Studland Road. Was there a connection at South Acton?
Also there were connections from the Metropolitan Railway at Aylesbury towards Princes Risborough and at Quainton Road on the GCR and near Latimer Road/Uxbridge Road. Was there a connection at Verney Junction?
Technically the Piccadilly Line partially runs on LSWR right of way from Studland Junction to Turnham Green.
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Post by grahamhewett on Aug 17, 2013 16:16:34 GMT
There also appears to have been a Midland-Met connexion at West Hampstead (Mid) - Finchley Road but I can't find any dates for it going oou (1953?). The various atlases definitely show a connexion at S Acton, but it is not clear that it ever had a passenger service (certainly not by 1922) and it may have been lifted as early as 1880. nickg - do you also include connexions off the Underground metals onto "deadend" national network sidings; if so, there might be quite a number of freight depots that were connected only via the underground metals. For example, the Midland had a depot at West Kensington and another at HSK. |
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Post by revupminster on Aug 17, 2013 16:29:57 GMT
There is a new connection, couple of years old, at Barking between the London Overground and the eastbound district for engineers trains. The Metropolitan Line used to connect to the main line at Liverpool Street into platforms 1 and 2.
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Post by metrailway on Aug 17, 2013 17:44:02 GMT
There was a connection between the Metropolitan Railway and the LNWR at Verney Junction; in the early days of the Great Central Railway there was a connection between the GCR and the Met at Canfield Place; I think there was a connection between the GC and Met at Wembley Park as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2013 18:26:19 GMT
Barking still exists but in a different form and different location. Gospel Oak line just before platform 1 to the e/b platform 2/3 on the District.
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Post by phillw48 on Aug 17, 2013 18:45:48 GMT
Wasn't there a connection re-established at Upminster for engineering trains?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2013 20:01:11 GMT
It was never connected there was a disagreement between NR and Metronet at the time to move a overhead line stantion. But the points that would of taken a train over to the Romford line platform are still in place.
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Post by revupminster on Aug 17, 2013 20:21:20 GMT
It was never connected there was a disagreement between NR and Metronet at the time to move a overhead line stantion. But the points that would of taken a train over to the Romford line platform are still in place. As I understand it D stock was to be refurbished at Bombadier Ilford depot by hauling a complete train by diesel and this fell through and the trains were taken to Bombadier Derby carriage by carriage by road to be done. Somehow this was cheaper and more efficient!!!! |
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Post by phillw48 on Aug 17, 2013 23:21:07 GMT
That seems strange as there was a spur leading into the depot just beyond the buffer stop on the Romford Upminster branch and they could have been simply connected to each other.
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Post by southfieldschris on Aug 18, 2013 11:50:26 GMT
I'm not 100% sure but I think there was a point when Morden depot was connected to a freight line that was used to deliver milk to a nearby dairy (both the track and the dairy were demolished when the mosque was built). I believe that this freight line did connect to the mainline as well, but I may be wrong. I don't think Morden depot was ever connected to the dairy and I'm pretty certain the Northern Line never ran any further south than the depot. The dairy's rail connection was built in 1954 and ran out to the south to join the Wimbledon - Sutton line at Morden South. The line of route southwards to Sutton had at one time been intended for what was to become the Northern Line but any rights were ceded to the SR so they could build the Wimbledon - Sutton line instead. |
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Post by revupminster on Aug 18, 2013 15:53:32 GMT
That seems strange as there was a spur leading into the depot just beyond the buffer stop on the Romford Upminster branch and they could have been simply connected to each other. That link into the depot would make the Romford Upminster line an ideal candidate for tram conversion with a couple of passing points en-route and allow the trams to terminate at Cranham or even go on to street running through Cranham. Two or three trams could be stored and maintained by the depot. An interesting picture taken 26 April 2009 is of an engineers train headed by a class 66 locomotive on the Romford Upminster line during replacement of the crossover.  replacing the crossover at Upminster by REVUpminster, on Flickr |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 21:46:33 GMT
I assume the class 66 got on to the district at barking, the connection is clearly visible on Google earth.
Was there ever a link in place at Upminster with the Romford line, and when was it taken out?
Also does anyone know when the links between the mainline and hammersmith and city were taken out and why?
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Post by phillw48 on Aug 18, 2013 22:01:25 GMT
There was a link at Upminster but it was disused for many years. It may have been taken out as late as the early 80's when the line was electrified.
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Post by revupminster on Aug 19, 2013 5:29:19 GMT
The link if any was probably taken out as early as the 1930's when the line was four tracked for the District extension. A link was maintained west of Upminster between Romford - Upminster and the BR tracks crossing the District tracks. This was removed circa 1968 together with the siding from May and Baker at Dagenham East that crossed the District Line. You can still see the cable supports that went over the siding entrance east of Dagenham East. This took out all conflicting moves that held up District trains.
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Post by southfieldschris on Aug 19, 2013 7:22:08 GMT
I assume the class 66 got on to the district at barking, the connection is clearly visible on Google earth. Was there ever a link in place at Upminster with the Romford line, and when was it taken out? Also does anyone know when the links between the mainline and hammersmith and city were taken out and why? There are some details on the H & C connections here link |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2013 17:37:22 GMT
Thanks for the info, any idea if the maiden lane curve was ever used?
I was thinking of the links at Paddington, anyone any idea of the track plan there, and when and why the links were taken out?
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Aug 19, 2013 18:24:54 GMT
l remember the British Railways (W) steam hauled cattle trains coming off the BR tracks near Praed Street Junction and taking these quite heavy freights along the northern side of the Met/Circle to Smithfield market where there must have been more connections as LT had no running powers in Smithfield!. I don't know when this traffic ceased. It was generally hauled by pannier tanks with special condensing apparatus, so this traffic may have continued until or just before the end of steam haulage. I suggest the connection was taken out quite soon afterwards as in the early 70s, very little evidence remained as l have no evidence that this traffic was ever diesel hauled.
This means that the BR tracks within the market could not have been accessed without going along L T metals
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2013 23:11:21 GMT
One problem in considering what links there were in the past was that there wasn't a firm distinction between 'Underground' and 'National/Main Line' Railways, and there were a lot of gray areas, where Underground trains ran over Main Line tracks or vice versa, or there was a joint line served by both! Untangling the Kensington-Hammesmith area is particularly difficult in this regard. But a lot of these were resolved by the BTC allocating lines to LTE or BR (the Railway Executive) after nationalisation, in 1948-50, with subsequent transfers. My list of BR-LT connections, as from that time, excluding BR depots accessed from LT lines: Metropolitan:Harrow S Jn Aylesbury S Jn Boundary moved to Amersham Mantles Wood 1962 Paddington (Suburban) ) Line between these later to LU, connections removed Westbourne Park ) King's Cross Widened Lines to LMR (Mid) and ER (GN) Farringdon West St Jn Widened lines to SR - Widened lines later to BR, connections removed
East LondonShoreditch, Spitalfields (via hoist, wagons only), New Cross, New Cross Gate, Surrey Docks - All for freight, &c., later removed DistrictCampbell Road Jn LT/BR boundary - line east to Upminster was ER (ex LMSR), later (1969) to LT and segregated (but recent connection installed at Barking) Putney Bridge Turnham Green Kensington Olympia, Earl's Court Junction LT into K.O. later segregated NorthernEast Finchley BR line later closed Mill Hill East BR line beyond later closed Drayton Park/Finsbury Park From Northern City BakerlooQueen's Park CentralLeyton BR line later closed Newbury Park BR line later closed West Ruislip From depot (Note, for some purposes Greenford – W.R. was BR until 1963) - Connections from E&SB previously removed?
Connections added since then: Northumberland Park (temporary to Victoria Line depot), and Stonebridge Park (access to Bakerloo depot)
Longer list, classified, of interactions, showing some of the gray areas - connection points boldened
Lines with LPTB workings but not wholly Owned, 1933-07-01 to 1947-12-31
Metropolitan Line: North of Harrow South Junction, to Watford, Chesham, Aylesbury, Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction – Met & LNER (GC) Joint (Aylesbury Stn was Met & LNER (GCR) Jt & GW & LNER (GC) Jt Joint (Quainton Road to Brill as lessees of O&AT). Connections to LPTB only at Harrow N & S Jns; to non-LPTB at Aylesbury S Jn., Quainton Road (N Jn) and Verney Junction. LPTB Services withdrawn North of Aylesbury 1937. Now, Harrow S Jn to Amersham (Mantles Wood) LU (no LU service Amersham – Mantles Wood)
Metropolitan (H&C): Westbourne Park (Green Lane Jn.) to Hammersmith. H&CJt, (Met & GW). Also Latimer Road to Uxbridge Road until 1940
District Line: St Mary's Jn to Campbell Road Jn - Whitechapel and Bow Joint (MDR & LMS (LTS, Mid.). Now LU
Metropolitan (EL): Shoreditch to Whitechapel, New Cross (excl) & New Cross Gate (excl). ELJt (LNER (GE), SR (SE & LBSC), Met & MDR Jt) Connection to LPTB only at Whitechapel S Jn; to non LPTB at Shoreditch, Spitalfields, Surrey Docks, New Cross and New Cross Gate. Note New Cross and New Cross Gate Stations SR owned
Lines LPTB worked but not Owned, 1933-07-01 to 1947-12-31
District: Campbell Road Junction to Upminster over LMSR. LU tracks now LU and separated, with non-running connection at Barking.
District and Piccadilly: Studland Road Junction – Turnham Green Jn over SR(LSW) – as lessee from 1932 (?), no SR service. Now LU.
District: Earls Court Jn to Kensington (Addison Road) over WLR (GW & LMS (LNW) Jt). Commenced 1945/46. LU now has own segregated track.
District: Turnham Green to Richmond. Over SR (LSWR).
District: Putney Bridge to Wimbledon. Over SR (LSWR). Still NR
Metropolitan (H&C): Paddington (Suburban/Bishops Road) to Westbourne Park (Green Lane Jn.) over GWR. LU now has segregated tracks.
Metropolitan (H&C): Uxbridge Road Jn to Kensington (Addison Road) over WLR (GW & LMS (LNW) Jt). Ceased 1940
Metropolitan (EL): New Cross and New Cross Gate Stations. Over SR (SER/LBSC)
District: Earls Court Jn to Kensington (Addison Road) over WLR (GW & LMS (LNW) Jt). Commenced 1945/46. LU now has own segregated track.
Northern: East Finchley to High Barnet and Mill Hill East. Over LNE (GN) from 1940. Now LU.
Central: Leyton to Woodford, Over LNE (GE), from 1947. Beyond Woodford to Ongar, and to Newbury Park (Jn) via Hainault would have been same, but LT service only from 1948. Now LU. Note: Leytonstone to Newbury Park LPTB/LT from start.
Central: White City to Ealing Broadway over GW (E&SB); North Acton to Greenford over GW (Greenford to West Ruislip opened 1948, would have been same) Relevant tracks now LU
Bakerloo: Queen's Park to Watford Junction, over LMS (LNW)
Same, but 'LT' service withdrawn earlier
Metropolitan Railway (H&C): Hammersmith Grove Road Jn to Richmond (via Studland Road Jn and Turnham Green) over LSWR. Not electrified, service withdrawn 1906. Metropolitan District Railway: Ealing Broadway to Windsor. Over GWR - short term in 1880s
LPTB owned but with non-LT services
Metropolitan Widened lines: King's Cross (3 Jns, with LMS (Mid.) and LNE (GN) * 2 to Farringdon, West Street Junction (with SR (LC&D, SE&C) and Moorgate, also Snow Hill Jn to Smithfield (hence Moorgate) – service ceased 1917. Non-LPTB goods depots at Farringdon (LNER(GN), Smithfield (GW) and Whitecross Street. Now segregated, non LU tracks to NR.
Metropolitan: Paddington (Suburban/Bishops Road) to Smithfield (goods) & Liverpool St (psgr, ceased 1939) – by GWR (psgr worked by Met Elec locos post 1905)
District: Studland Road Jn to Kensington goods depots, by LMS (Mid)
District: Kensington Addison Road, Earls Court Jn – Earls Court, by LMS (LNW)
Non-running Connections
Metropolitan – Midland. Exchange sidings at West Hampstead/Finchley Road
District - South Acton, connection to LMS (LNW, N&SWJ) Originally set up for through running, but never used. Removed by 1930?
District: LMS (Mid) Goods Depots at West Kensington and High St. Kensington
Victoria: Temporary connection to Northumberland Park depot c1967
Bakerloo: Stonebridge Park Access to LT depot
E&OE! - Corrections Welcome
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Aug 20, 2013 8:30:34 GMT
@ etr220 (Note, for some purposes Greenford – W.R. was BR until 1963)
Yes, but there was no physical rail connection LT/WR at Greenford even in the 1950s (or '60s) The brown BR totem was above the LT totem on the station sign, and outside the station it read "CENTRAL LINE GREENFORD STATION WESTERN REGION"
In the days of steam and right up until the class slam-door Class 121s that generally operated the service were retired, you could board/alight on either side of the BR train in the bay platform.
Also, l am not convinced there was any physical connection anywhere between Greenford and Wood Lane as BR had separate tracks from North Acton to Wood Lane. I think these were lifted in the early 70s but had been rusted over OOU for some time before that.
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Post by grahamhewett on Aug 20, 2013 9:11:04 GMT
etr220 - that's a pretty comprehensive list. The only immediate extras, falling in to your "non-running" category, I can think of - but I'm unsure of their legal ownership status - would be the freight depots at S Harrow Gas works, Rayners Lane, Eastcote, and Harrow-on the Hill which were served by BR but only accessible via LU metals. GH
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 9:21:51 GMT
etr220 - that's a pretty comprehensive list. The only immediate extras, falling in to your "non-running" category, I can think of - but I'm unsure of their legal ownership status - would be the freight depots at S Harrow Gas works, Rayners Lane, Eastcote, and Harrow-on the Hill which were served by BR but only accessible via LU metals. GH Of these S Harrow Gas works, Rayners Lane, Eastcote were all 'LPTB (ex Met)' goods yards, while Harrow-o-t-H was 'LPTB-LNER' joint, so weren't actually not LU/LT. AIUI the Uxbridge line goods service was LT worked until withdrawn, while goods services on the 'Joint Line' (Harrow and North) were LNER/BR as part of their share of the service The connection I realise I did miss was the early (and short lived) Met-GE connection through Liverpool Street @ etr220 (Note, for some purposes Greenford – W.R. was BR until 1963) Yes, but there was no physical rail connection LT/WR at Greenford even in the 1950s (or '60s) The brown BR totem was above the LT totem on the station sign, and outside the station it read "CENTRAL LINE GREENFORD STATION WESTERN REGION" In the days of steam and right up until the class slam-door Class 121s that generally operated the service were retired, you could board/alight on either side of the BR train in the bay platform. Also, l am not convinced there was any physical connection anywhere between Greenford and Wood Lane as BR had separate tracks from North Acton to Wood Lane. I think these were lifted in the early 70s but had been rusted over OOU for some time before that. I would agree there was no physical connection at Greenford between the electrified lines (used by LT services) and non-electrified ones (used by BR services), Barker and Robbins (my source for this) state that Greenford to W Ruislip was BR managed, but vested in LT until 1963 - so at at Greenford Central line trains moved from LT owned, LT managed to LT owned but BR managed tracks (even if it looked like any other LT line. What connections there were from the mainline to the new tracks for the Central Line (built and until 1947-12-31 owned by the GWR) North Acton to West Ruislip, or how long they lasted, I don't know, but I imagine there must have been some for engineering trains. I believe the order of totems was a give away to those in the know as to who was in charge! Between Wood Lane (White City) CLR station and Ealing Broadway the Central Line ran over the GW's Ealing and Shepherds Bush Railway - as built (1913-1917) this was just a double track, also used by GW trains with connections at Wood Lane Junction (from Viaduct Junction on the WLR), North Acton and Ealing Broadway. At a later date (sometime inthe 1930s IIRC) an extra pair of tracks were built for GW trains (at least Wood Lane Jn to North Acton), which then ceased using the electrified tracks - and the connections then became disused (at least for normal traffic) and were subsequently removed - but I don't know when. |
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Post by metrailway on Aug 20, 2013 10:50:28 GMT
The fast lines into Marylebone (Harrow - Canfield Place) were built and owned by the Metropolitan Railway and leased to the GCR for £20,000 per annum.
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Post by brigham on Aug 20, 2013 13:01:21 GMT
Is the situation still the same today? Chiltern stock appears to be tripcock-fitted, which suggests that Marylebone services run over the Met, rather than the other way round.
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Post by domh245 on Aug 20, 2013 14:27:52 GMT
I can't see why they don't just copy from the District Wimbledon branch, where the signals have both tripcocks and AWS / TPWS installed, so that any NR stock, within clearance, can run over the track. It does require breaks in the negative rail, but these are not very often, and with the new S stock, the chance of being gapped is very low. This would allow Chiltern to work any of their stocks over the line, although they will probably wait until ETCS starts to be installed and a new fleet of trains is ordered.
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Post by brigham on Aug 20, 2013 15:30:27 GMT
As things stand, could Aylesbury trains once more run into Baker Street, or are there gauge restrictions?
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Post by grahamhewett on Aug 20, 2013 17:09:58 GMT
@etr - no, the freight over the Uxbridge branch definitely continued into my life time well after LPTB was formed and was worked by BR accessing the yards over LT metals; I well remember watching a Standard 4MT in appalling condition struggle to propel a couple of loaded wagons up the gradient into Eastcote yard in the early '60s. Somewhere else in this forum - no doubt the moderators may be able to locate this - someone kindly located the working timetable and posted it here showing the S Harrow, Rayners Lane and Eastcote calls. The question still arises therefore as to whether these yards had become LNE and then BR yards after the LPTB was formed, bearing in mind that the LPTB had no statutory powers to run freight. I guess the same goes for Harrow otH, although LT definitely provided traction if BR couldn't - again, in the very early sixties, I recall L53 shunting there.[ BTW this doesn't legally mean that LT were acting outside their statutory powers - the key determinant is who is "the directing mind" - a concept with which the TOCs have become only too familiar in recent years...]
GH
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 20, 2013 18:48:32 GMT
Is the situation still the same today? Chiltern stock appears to be tripcock-fitted, which suggests that Marylebone services run over the Met, rather than the other way round. Yes, the dear departed MetControl once said that it is LU that "allow" Chiltern to run over their metals. |
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