mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 28, 2012 14:07:31 GMT
As some of you may know, I was the co-author with Brian Hardy on a new history of the Northern Heights extensions - Brian provided most of the text and history, but I spent a long time researching in the archives looking through many thousands of original documents to find out what was planned. At the end of this research, I managed to pull together all the threads and draw out the signalling diagrams as near to what can be constructed, the best thing is to read the preamble on the Drayton Park diagram before looking at the rest of the diagrams. They are not to scale, but are in proportion to each other. The book has now (AFAIK) sold out, and I've been working in the background to slowly update the diagrams as printed, as there has been some discussion concerning Muswell Hill and Alexandra Palace on the forum and it is the time of festive goodwill, I've taken the step of releasing these publically for your enjoyment. Please use the 'zoom' function (the magnifying glass). These diagrams complement Harsig's rather fab diagrams of the rest of the extensions: Northern Extensions and Northern City LineAlso, following a request from Rich32 I shall crack on with drawing the rest of the Northern City Line, post resignalling. I do have a drawing of the Great Northern and City Railway signalling, which I shall upload to this thread when I find it on this machine. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2012 15:53:31 GMT
This is absolutely amazing! Thanks MRFS for putting up, the amount of hard work and dedication to make these diagrams must have been immense! Every document is very interesting, I had no idea Edgware and Bushey Heath were going to be such big sites, I've seen rough plans before but nothing like this! I love the use of the Johnston too, you can almost see the signal plates written in it ;D
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Dec 28, 2012 16:31:48 GMT
If you're after NCL info M, I've got a set of scale plans from 1971ish if they're of use?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 28, 2012 16:38:15 GMT
If you're after NCL info M, I've got a set of scale plans from 1971ish if they're of use? Yes please! I've got copies of most of the TC Supps from the 30s when the NCL was redone, but an extra souce of information would be much appreciated. |
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 28, 2012 17:50:51 GMT
Just wanted to reiterate the gratitude shown above. Very interesting material on a subject close to my heart. Many thanks.
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Post by JR 15secs on Dec 28, 2012 18:02:24 GMT
As some of you may know, I was the co-author with Brian Hardy on a new history of the Northern Heights extensions - Brian provided most of the text and history, but I spent a long time researching in the archives looking through many thousands of original documents to find out what was planned. At the end of this research, I managed to pull together all the threads and draw out the signalling diagrams as near to what can be constructed, the best thing is to read the preamble on the Drayton Park diagram before looking at the rest of the diagrams. They are not to scale, but are in proportion to each other. The book has now (AFAIK) sold out, and I've been working in the background to slowly update the diagrams as printed, as there has been some discussion concerning Muswell Hill and Alexandra Palace on the forum and it is the time of festive goodwill, I've taken the step of releasing these publically for your enjoyment. Please use the 'zoom' function (the magnifying glass). These diagrams complement Harsig's rather fab diagrams of the rest of the extensions: Northern Extensions and Northern City LineAlso, following a request from Rich32 I shall crack on with drawing the rest of the Northern City Line, post resignalling. I do have a drawing of the Great Northern and City Railway signalling, which I shall upload to this thread when I find it on this machine. Re your Edgware diagram my notes show that there were 4 spare spaces with 15 spare levers and the king lever was 76. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 28, 2012 19:05:33 GMT
Re your Edgware diagram my notes show that there were 4 spare spaces with 15 spare levers and the king lever was 76. My copy of the scale diagram that the drawing was based on says: 36 levers for 48 signals 29 levers for 41 points 1 King lever 17 spare levers. Could you expand a little bit more, please: off list if you'd prefer? Is it as simple as 3 A and 3 B became 3 and 4 respectively and 40 A and 40 B became 40 and 41 respectively. It would be interesting to know the variations, if any. |
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Post by JR 15secs on Dec 28, 2012 19:24:15 GMT
Re your Edgware diagram my notes show that there were 4 spare spaces with 15 spare levers and the king lever was 76. My copy of the scale diagram that the drawing was based on says: 36 levers for 48 signals 29 levers for 41 points 1 King lever 17 spare levers. Could you expand a little bit more, please: off list if you'd prefer? Is it as simple as 3 A and 3 B became 3 and 4 respectively and 40 A and 40 B became 40 and 41 respectively. It would be interesting to know the variations, if any. I will wait to hear from you then. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 28, 2012 19:25:53 GMT
My copy of the scale diagram that the drawing was based on says: 36 levers for 48 signals 29 levers for 41 points 1 King lever 17 spare levers. Could you expand a little bit more, please: off list if you'd prefer? Is it as simple as 3 A and 3 B became 3 and 4 respectively and 40 A and 40 B became 40 and 41 respectively. It would be interesting to know the variations, if any. I will wait to hear from you then. Er... Could you tell me how what I've drawn is different, please? With lever numbers for the spares and spaces, please? |
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Post by JR 15secs on Dec 28, 2012 19:35:22 GMT
I will wait to hear from you then. Er... Could you tell me how what I've drawn is different, please? With lever numbers for the spares and spaces, please? I will dig out the necessary and reply tomorrow I don't have a plan still waiting for that only frame arrangement/table of locking/Dog chart. And remember that when these schemes were done LT would always modify although they supplied the detail in the first place. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 28, 2012 20:06:19 GMT
Fab. If you send me all the details, I could draw the plan for you. My plan is dated (I think) 20/10/39.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2012 20:55:21 GMT
Just wanted to reiterate the gratitude shown above. Very interesting material on a subject close to my heart. Many thanks. Agreed. These diagrams are excellent and answer a lot of questions that I've had regarding the signaling on the Northern Heights. It makes it all the more depressing that only the smallest fraction of these works were ever fully utilized. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2012 7:19:06 GMT
Fabulous material, many thanks for making it available mrfs42. @ Tom, do your 1971 scale plans show the Great Northern electrification works to link the GN&City to the GN mainlines? If so then I'd be very interested to see them too if possible. It would be interesting to know what works were completed. For instance, the new Up connection at Drayton Park went in but not the Down. And at Finsbury Park wasn't the embankment widened on the south side and the new platforms on the east side partly constructed? Was the plan to split services so that some ran to Finsbury Park Low Level and others ran through to the Northern Heights? What was the proposed service pattern? Fascinating stuff, cheers  |
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Post by JR 15secs on Dec 29, 2012 8:20:14 GMT
Fab. If you send me all the details, I could draw the plan for you. My plan is dated (I think) 20/10/39. You have a PM. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 29, 2012 10:30:20 GMT
It would be interesting to know what works were completed. For instance, the new Up connection at Drayton Park went in but not the Down. And at Finsbury Park wasn't the embankment widened on the south side and the new platforms on the east side partly constructed? Er... OTTOMH, yes. Presumably you're asking because of your interest in the goings-on at Finsbury Park on the LNE side? Was the plan to split services so that some ran to Finsbury Park Low Level and others ran through to the Northern Heights? What was the proposed service pattern? That is one of the outstanding puzzles - I do have some patchy information on Northern TD stuff of the era and drawings of what was going to be provided in the way of platform signs for the public on the Northern Heights JR 15 secs' (new to me) information does change the game significantly as it gives the impression that there were no splitting/combining moves planned at Edgware, although my plan does have the calling on and warners. Hmm. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 29, 2012 12:40:46 GMT
The plot thickens again? Tom - would those be the old signalling scale linen plans? Would you happen to know where one might find a copy of Epping - Ongar from around that period, and other since abandoned lines, like to Aylesbury or South Acton, in addition? On a tangent to that (apologies) would anything exist viz Picc to Waterloo? Find it incredible how its taken roughly 70 years for the puzzle of 15 years of planning to come out! M and Brian - very much look forward to the next edition of the book comming out  |
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 29, 2012 18:32:44 GMT
On a slight tangent...I've seen a modern-ish network projection map at some point over the years that suggested a curve from East Finchley to Cranley Gardens. Can't for the life of me find it now though... Edit: Ahh, found it, and our previous discussion! |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 29, 2012 18:45:04 GMT
On a slight tangent...I've seen a modern-ish network projection map at some point over the years that suggested a curve from East Finchley to Cranley Gardens. Can't for the life of me find it now though... Really? If you ever find it (or remember the date) I'd be most interested. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 29, 2012 23:22:15 GMT
I sent an email to the webmaster of the BRS codemap site some time ago to ask for further information, if he had any. Within 2 days the site was taken offline...
Curiosity killed the Ben.
It probably belongs in the catagory of one of the many curves layed out in the 19th century just in case, which never subsequently came to pass. Least the land seemed available for it to happen subsequently though.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 29, 2012 23:37:43 GMT
I sent an email to the webmaster of the BRS codemap site some time ago to ask for further information, if he had any. Within 2 days the site was taken offline... Curiosity killed the Ben. Yes - but a deep crawl gives a URL which allows me to search on this machine for a filename... Bear with me. I may still have a copy. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 29, 2012 23:40:40 GMT
Its on webarchive if that helps.... |
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 30, 2012 0:03:42 GMT
I still have a copy, if that helps...
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 30, 2012 0:13:24 GMT
I still have a copy, if that helps... Oo. Yes please. I'll PM you and email address, as I can't find it on this machine. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Dec 30, 2012 22:23:22 GMT
@ Tom, do your 1971 scale plans show the Great Northern electrification works to link the GN&City to the GN mainlines? If so then I'd be very interested to see them too if possible. I'm afraid they don't; the only show the LT signalling as installed at the time. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Dec 30, 2012 22:25:51 GMT
Tom - would those be the old signalling scale linen plans? Would you happen to know where one might find a copy of Epping - Ongar from around that period, and other since abandoned lines, like to Aylesbury or South Acton, in addition? On a tangent to that (apologies) would anything exist viz Picc to Waterloo? They are indeed the old 88':1" linen plans (or copies thereof). I think the Design Office still holds copies of the old Central Line scale plans, but they will be in the state they were last revised in the 1990s and it's a bit of guesswork to identify what changed when. You have to be more of a graphologist than a signalling engineer; it helps if someone with distinctive writing worked on the plans! |
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