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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 18:19:02 GMT
Apparently the S stock deliverys have been stopped at the minute and production will start on the Circle line! MetControl mentioned that S stock deliveries are about to resume very shortly, so I can't see any truth in your post. Not saying that you didn't hear it, only that your source is wrong. And in response to an earlier post about the A stock being run down to make them look like they need replacing, the fact is they DO need replacing and fast. The effort that is now going into them to get them to run each day is a large one. It's like some people are still in denial about the A stock going. They'll be gone by the summer - fact. They've given sterling service over the years - fact. I'll miss them as they are the last trains of a great era of LT - fact. They are on their last legs - fact - and for a 50 year old train, that's no disgrace. So, Rickmansworth Canal Festival is 20th May, and Amersham Heritage Day is 9th September. Are A stock likely to be around for either of these? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 6, 2012 18:30:43 GMT
Not sure, probably May but not sure about September. It is a heritage day so you never know. I expect a few units to be kept for the 150th Anniversary in Jan 2013 and I also expect at least one unit to be kept in working order.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 20:53:14 GMT
Me and my mates have all placed bets that A stock will make it till 2013!
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jan 6, 2012 22:32:49 GMT
Much as I love the A Stock, I don't see them making it past October '12 (at a push that is). To see them survive to 2013 would be a miracle, but admittedly they're deteriorating quickly now - as some folks have said, age is fast cathcing up with them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 22:34:48 GMT
Much as I love the A Stock, I don't see them making it past October '12 (at a push that is). To see them survive to 2013 would be a miracle, but admittedly they're deteriorating quickly now - as some folks have said, age is fast cathcing up with them. Not age, lack of thorough maintenance ;D ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 22:35:29 GMT
Much as I love the A Stock, I don't see them making it past October '12 (at a push that is). To see them survive to 2013 would be a miracle, but admittedly they're deteriorating quickly now - as some folks have said, age is fast cathcing up with them. Not age, lack of thorough maintenance ;D ;D Agreed! |
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jan 6, 2012 23:15:17 GMT
Not age, lack of thorough maintenance ;D ;D Agreed! Well, yes that is a factor, I'm only mentioning age as Cravens shut down in 1966. There should be a thorough maintenance regieme to the last and that lacking somewhat, a cleaning regieme is lacking so that is a low point. I did pitch my suggestions to the former Metronet that at least 5 8-car units should be spruced up and kept available until the new signalling system rolls out. |
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Post by eurostarengineer on Jan 7, 2012 15:59:52 GMT
Why spend thousands of pounds in cleaning if they're due to be scrapped any time soon? Maintenance does happen as LU (or any other ToC as a matter of fact) have a legal obligation to.
Older stuff lasts longer, this is a very, very basic engineering fact. Look at how things were built in previous years, cast iron, solid steel etc. not plastic and foam.
If you built things to yesteryears standards then it would be too slow to go anywhere from the sheer weight of the body shell it's self.
Times change and along with that, design changes too.
How can you possibly predict how long the S stock is going to last? Just because theyve had a few minor issues doesn't mean to say that you won't get 50 years out of them.
I've heard the service life is 25 years but what stock in the UK has been replaced after their service life? None. Because when the service life is up, they're sent away for a mid life refurb which piles on the year of service.
It's an incredibly easy cycle which is easy to work out and understand.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 7, 2012 16:27:05 GMT
25 years would seem very low!
I thought about 35-40 years was the norm.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 7, 2012 16:28:33 GMT
But there was plenty of rubbish built 50 years ago too (or any other tiime you want to mention).
The reason we only see good old things around is because bad old things didn't last. This applies as much in the arts as it does in engineering .
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 7, 2012 17:12:20 GMT
and buildings. You make a good point. The only way to know the answer is to run the test of time!
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jan 7, 2012 17:58:54 GMT
But there was plenty of rubbish built 50 years ago too (or any other tiime you want to mention). The reason we only see good old things around is because bad old things didn't last. This applies as much in the arts as it does in engineering . *coughs* 1962 Stock *coughs* Of course I should put emphasis on thorough as so many others have done (to lay claim to linecontroller66) - yes odd jobs are done the A Stock to allow them to get through the coming months, but it appears minimal to the public there is a duty to make them presentable and fully operable right up to their final moments, our fares pay for improvements as well as paying for quality not to deteriorate (salaries/energy (obviously)). This is just my view and that of a number of others. |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 7, 2012 21:51:39 GMT
MetControl mentioned that S stock deliveries are about to resume very shortly, so I can't see any truth in your post. Not saying that you didn't hear it, only that your source is wrong. And in response to an earlier post about the A stock being run down to make them look like they need replacing, the fact is they DO need replacing and fast. The effort that is now going into them to get them to run each day is a large one. It's like some people are still in denial about the A stock going. They'll be gone by the summer - fact. They've given sterling service over the years - fact. I'll miss them as they are the last trains of a great era of LT - fact. They are on their last legs - fact - and for a 50 year old train, that's no disgrace. So, Rickmansworth Canal Festival is 20th May, and Amersham Heritage Day is 9th September. Are A stock likely to be around for either of these? I suspect they will be out of regular service by September, but they may not have disposed of them all by then, so we may see one at the Amersham Heritage Day. You never know! |
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Post by eurostarengineer on Jan 7, 2012 22:35:34 GMT
But there was plenty of rubbish built 50 years ago too (or any other tiime you want to mention). The reason we only see good old things around is because bad old things didn't last. This applies as much in the arts as it does in engineering . *coughs* 1962 Stock *coughs* Of course I should put emphasis on thorough as so many others have done (to lay claim to linecontroller66) - yes odd jobs are done the A Stock to allow them to get through the coming months, but it appears minimal to the public there is a duty to make them presentable and fully operable right up to their final moments, our fares pay for improvements as well as paying for quality not to deteriorate (salaries/energy (obviously)). This is just my view and that of a number of others. Erm. No. Just no. You are misguided, child. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 8, 2012 0:32:35 GMT
Erm. No. Just no. You are misguided, child. Care to educate then? I'd be interested in your take, given that you are also quite young, and presumably consider yourself to be at the cutting edge of engineering innovation. In a new thread, if you'd be so kind. |
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jan 8, 2012 1:17:40 GMT
It would have been a better use of your time to tell me how I was misguided - also to label me 'child' is rather poor, given I am not much younger than yourself. If you're to spend time telling people they are fundamentally wrong - make it worthwhile and descriptive. Enlighten us to your vast knowledge base next time....
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Post by eurostarengineer on Jan 8, 2012 8:05:44 GMT
It's common logic! Why spend thousands on top notch cleaning and the highest form of maintenance exams/repairs when the trains will cease to exist come end of the year.
The money saved is better spent on upgrades/trouble shooting the newer stuff.
Don't need a 'vast knowledge base' to understand that.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 8, 2012 9:54:56 GMT
So you don't think corporate image is important then?  |
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jan 8, 2012 10:14:41 GMT
There is a difference between slightly downgrading and being completely minimal - I and the others probably wouldn't be too bothered if the lapses were minor, but they're noticably aesthetically deteriorating, and as linecontroller66 said of a lack of thorough maintenance, I'm taking that as being gospel.
I agree, too, with Metman about a duty to the corporate image.
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Post by eurostarengineer on Jan 8, 2012 10:19:37 GMT
You're missing the point. I'm not saying scrap higher levels of maintenance and cleaning schedules, I'm saying keep doing it but at a reduced rate.
Anyway, with a company like TfL and the massive presence it serves in London, I doubt they'll worry too much about dirty trains (except graffiti obviously) as if you use the river, bus or black cab as an alternative they'll still get your money.
Yes, it would be nice to see the A stock being kept in a decent condition but it's not worthwhile especially as the company is struggling financially. Thin ice comes to mind.
From what I gather, it certainly won't be like this with the S stock as I've heard that they're going to install CWM's on the depot reception roads. Wether or not this will materialise I don't know but it is good practise to have a train cleaned before it leaves the depot.
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jan 8, 2012 10:30:20 GMT
Yes, as I said we wouldn't care too much if there was a slight downgrading - but for the while they're not in what I'd call an acceptable condition. It is only to be expected that there is a managed decline - one would excuse them for being pi$$-poor (excuse the pun) if they had outstabled somewhere. What does CWN stand for? Yes, indeed it is a good practise to clean a train before leaving a depot. Meanwhile Graeme has stated they've started cleaning train exteriors once again....
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Post by malcolmffc on Jan 8, 2012 10:37:16 GMT
The project timeline on TfL's website shows that "All new trains" will be on the Met line by the end of 2012. So a few A stocks will still be around during the Olympics, though I suspect they'll be confined to running outside the City.
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Post by eurostarengineer on Jan 8, 2012 10:37:43 GMT
CWM - Carriage Wash Machine.
Maybe fire off an email to them and see what corporate bull**** they come out with.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 8, 2012 10:45:58 GMT
The company is always struggling financially though!
You're right; that certainly seems to be the mentality, but just to note its inherent hypocracy. One must consider why graffiti is removed and considered unacceptable, whereas a train running round with half its livery scraped/scrubbed off and covered in filth isn't.
Time left to withdrawl shouldn't be (though is) a factor in what state of repair something is kept. Its been pointed out before on here that depot staff simply aren't allowed to keep the A stock in a condition which they would prefer to, and until relatively recently were accustomed to. It must be a serious drain on morale to know you aren't doing a job as well as you can/like/did on one set of trains, whilst knowing their replacements even with intensive trouble shooting are still doing worse at this moment in time.
All the while the people who forceably pay for all this to happen are made to just stand there and take it, and be told over and over that everything is getting better.
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Jan 8, 2012 12:19:06 GMT
CWM - Carriage Wash Machine. Maybe fire off an email to them and see what corporate bull**** they come out with. Did that on Friday - still haven't availed to respond. |
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 8, 2012 13:21:09 GMT
I rode on the A stock just the other day it was on its last legs alright!
The paint was hardly showing! The train was almost white!
The motors sounded like a cat being strangled!
However I managed to get on a S stock coming back much nicer but I will miss the A stock
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Post by redsetter on Jan 8, 2012 13:23:36 GMT
The company is always struggling financially though! You're right; that certainly seems to be the mentality, but just to note its inherent hypocracy. One must consider why graffiti is removed and considered unacceptable, whereas a train running round with half its livery scraped/scrubbed off and covered in filth isn't. Time left to withdrawl shouldn't be (though is) a factor in what state of repair something is kept. Its been pointed out before on here that depot staff simply aren't allowed to keep the A stock in a condition which they would prefer to, and until relatively recently were accustomed to. It must be a serious drain on morale to know you aren't doing a job as well as you can/like/did on one set of trains, whilst knowing their replacements even with intensive trouble shooting are still doing worse at this moment in time. All the while the people who forceably pay for all this to happen are made to just stand there and take it, and be told over and over that everything is getting better. this is very true,graffiti is know to create a climate of fear where more serious crime can take hold.the A stock looks have taken the new years bash and then just left. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 8, 2012 21:04:43 GMT
@jardine01 - the motors have always sounded like that - it's called a DC motor - it sounds amazing  Yes the paint is scaratched and pitted but that's due to the lack of TLC. In Paris, the Z stock was only replaced on the RER because it couldn't get up the incline on the new line NOT because it was life expired. Sure the A stock are old and probably due for replacement but that doesn't mean they should be left to look c&@p! |
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Post by tecchy on Jan 8, 2012 23:18:30 GMT
S Stock has a life of 40 years. But, that's what they have been designed for, they can still run after 40 years. But its a recommendation that the S stock should be looking to be replaced at on it's 40th birthday.
A Stock maintenance has reduced. The trains are not being lifted for overhaul at the usual times, so often the depot is catering for 'on the run faults' or running repairs, rather than planned maintenance. The thing that everyone picks up on is that the depot does not have the time to replace windows or panels when they have graffiti. This often means scratching is rife. Another example is where you would have changed a seat 10 years ago because of a minor tear in the fabric, now depending on the person changing it, the parts in the stores and because everyone knows its going to get scrapped - move onto to a more important job! The bar is getting lower and in the interior this is the first thing that shows to the public.
A Stocks have always made a variety of noises, but most of these are intentional. A rigid structure always breaks first.
People always say that the A Stock has done a good job - which it has. But people forget parts get replaced so usually the only thing that is consistent is the body shell. Motors, valves, pipes, couplers, seats, etc are all replaced. A bit like on Only Fools and Horses when Trigger claims he has had the same broom for 10 years. He just changed the head 5 times and the handle 6! (or some other figures!)
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 8, 2012 23:32:36 GMT
Yes, I remember that scene with Trigger. ;D You are of course, quite right about the maintenance.
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Yes the paint is scaratched and pitted but that's due to the lack of TLC. In Paris, the Z stock was only replaced on the RER because it couldn't get up the incline on the new line NOT because it was life expired. Sure the A stock are old and probably due for replacement but that doesn't mean they should be left to look c&@p!
