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Post by graeme186 on Nov 16, 2011 21:05:30 GMT
I'm sure some of you with a particular interest in the introduction of the new timetable will have discovered that it was loaded onto Journey Planner a few days back. I've not checked but no doubt other lines with a new timetable effective from 11th Dec have similarly been uploaded.
Anyway, I've fairly quickly put together the framework of the new MF timetable from Journey Planner. We know what the new off peak timetable is going to look like but I thought some members might be interested in some of the new peak hour features:
Firstly the morning peak:
- a new semi-fast Amersham-Aldgate service is introduced operating every 32 mins (i.e. every other 16 min cycle) between 0637 and 0845 from Amersham
- each 16 min cycle the above semi-fast service from Amersham operates (i.e. every other cycle), the all stations Uxbridge to Baker Street service is withdrawn and the semi-fast Watford to Baker Street service now operates all stations
- in the same 16 min cycle that the above arrangements apply, one of the Uxbridge-Aldgate trains now terminates at Baker Street. This I expect is a continuation of the arrangements introduced in WTT330 in an attempt to reduce congestion in the City during the morning peak and also the fact that the new semi-fast service from Amersham operates to Aldgate which is a different arrangement to the evening peak (see below)
- the new off-peak service pattern operates approx 0600-0630 meaning that the first fast train off the Amersham Branch is the 0628 ex Chesham. The last fast train off the Amersham Branch is the 0856 ex Amersham
- all NB Amersham/Chesham trains are either all stations or semi-fast (with a call at Wembley Park). There are no fasts.
The evening peak:
- a new semi-fast Baker Street-Amersham service is introduced operating every 32 mins (i.e. every other 16 min cycle) between 1644 and 1821 ex Baker Street (please note 1644, 1717 and then x32)
- during the same 16 min cycle the new above service operates, the all stations Baker Street-Uxbridge service is withdrawn and the semi-fast Baker Street-Watford service operates all stations
- because its obviously not been deemed necessary to apply the same morning peak restriction regarding congestion mitigation in the City, 2 Uxbridge trains each 16 min cycle continue to originate from Aldgate
- all fast and semi-fast trains stop at Wembley Park
- the first fast train to the Amersham Branch is the 1636 ex Aldgate to Chesham and the last the 1947 Aldgate to Amersham
- all SB trains from Amersham/Chesham operate either all stations or semi-fast (stopping at Wembley Park). There are more contra-peak flow semi-fasts in the evening peak than the morning peak
Without access to the new WTT and relying on Journey Planner, I think the above is more or less correct. No doubt MetControl will advise if I'm incorrect in anyway.
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kabsonline
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Post by kabsonline on Nov 16, 2011 22:05:06 GMT
All these all stations trains instead of fast trains will cause people to go to Marylebone and use Chiltern services. I know people think that people from Amersham and Chesham are just moaning but what is the point in going on a train that is going to stop at every single station if you can just go down one stop to Marylebone and get a train that is literally straight through and a lot quicker. I know this has already been discussed elsewhere but its just common sense. There rant over!  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2011 23:22:14 GMT
It will, I think, be interesting to see the comparative levels of crowding between Chiltern and Met. trains once the new timetable comes into operation.
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Post by malcolmffc on Nov 16, 2011 23:32:37 GMT
It may also affect TfL's travelcard and payg revenue if people start switching to Chiltern.
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Post by citysig on Nov 17, 2011 0:38:41 GMT
Given the sheer number of threads related to this timetable, and the time it takes to answer all the questions, and the fact that the reality will take hold within the next month (allowing everyone a different perspective) I have chosen to step back a little from in depth debate on the subject. There is not much more that can be said until the timetable is up and running. Regular readers should by now know that I am of the opinion that I hope it will go the way the new Circle Line went, and that all our fears are unfounded.
That said, just to pick up on a couple of points...
I don't have my WTT331 with me, but what graeme186 has summarised seems more or less to be spot on.
kabsonline again makes the repeated point that Amersham and Chesham folk are not moaners, but they will all be waiting around (or indeed getting up earlier) for a Chiltern service and cramming into that in order to travel past all our stations, rather than using the many more direct trains which will serve Aldgate. Ok, so around 4-7 minutes extra time on the train, but no changing at Baker Street, and no walk from Marylebone. If you get a seat, it's yours all the way to Aldgate on our trains. Wait for a Chiltern and if you get a seat, you'll still have to walk and if your journey is further east than Baker Street, you'll have to fight for a seat from there on a different train.
malcolmffc, I don't know all the political ins and outs, but surely whether a passenger travels on a Met or a Chiltern over our tracks, there will be a share of revenue. The first month may see hoards of people switching to Chiltern (especially those susceptible to the scare-mongering press stories.) Over time this may fall away, with people realising that for a few more minutes, you'll get a seat. This remains to be seen...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2011 17:17:41 GMT
The Amersham to Baker Street journey will take 11.5 minutes longer by the Met. One example off peak is 17 past ex Amersham slow (Harrow 49) Baker Street arrive 10 dep 11.5.
If you wait for the 26 Chiltern serice (Harrow at 49) arrive Marylebone 03 walk to Baker Street and still catch the 11.5 to Aldgate and you can leave Amersham 9 minutes later.
Also all the trains that work the Watford 15 minute service upon arrival at Baker Street then return to Uxbridge so if you have a problem on the Uxbridge line the Watford service will have problems as well. Only the AM/CM/UX to Aldgate trains are self contained.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2011 20:39:08 GMT
Also all the trains that work the Watford 15 minute service upon arrival at Baker Street then return to Uxbridge so if you have a problem on the Uxbridge line the Watford service will have problems as well. Only the AM/CM/UX to Aldgate trains are self contained. Such a scenario would not be as damaging if contrasted with Watford/Uxbridge non self containment on todays timetable Only Croxley and Watford passengers would take the large part of the hit, as the bulk of folks travelling up to Moor Park on the locals would be able to use the (presumably unaffected) Amersham/Chesham service Also the run time from Harrow to Uxbridge or Watford is very similar, so diverting an Uxbridge trip to Watford and back and vice versa may not be overly difficult in respect to maintaining duty lengths |
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Post by citysig on Nov 18, 2011 13:48:11 GMT
If you wait for the 26 Chiltern serice (Harrow at 49) arrive Marylebone 03 walk to Baker Street and still catch the 11.5 to Aldgate and you can leave Amersham 9 minutes later. So basically break your neck getting between the train at Marylebone and the train at Baker Street (especially if you get turfed off miles from the stops at the former) and all for the sake of... 9 minutes extra at Amersham   If I regularly commuted between Amersham and Aldgate off-peak, much as psychologically the journey is "longer," the actual convenience of being able to travel direct would begin to outweigh the perceived "speed" of the Chilterns. |
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Post by peterc on Nov 18, 2011 15:30:56 GMT
In the peaks the walk to Baker Street takes away any advantage of using Chiltern to Marylebone while the Bakerloo station at Marylebone often has the entrance closed due to overcrowding while at Oxford Circus you may have to let 3 or 4 Centrals go past before you even reach the platform edge.
Off peak the new through trains would counter any disadvantages from longer station to station journey times but most of the "bad publicity" seems to be based around how long it would take to get to Madame Tousauds rather than any other location in zone1.
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Post by citysig on Nov 18, 2011 22:54:28 GMT
A lot of the "bad publicity" also seems to involve the peaks - which will still have fast trains from Amersham and Chesham.
Whilst there are pros and cons with this timetable - which will all need to be seen in action - there are lots of people creating (not just on here) about something that will not be happening.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2011 15:02:00 GMT
A lot of the "bad publicity" also seems to involve the peaks - which will still have fast trains from Amersham and Chesham. Whilst there are pros and cons with this timetable - which will all need to be seen in action - there are lots of people creating (not just on here) about something that will not be happening. I am not a resident on the Amersham/Chesham line but it seems to me that are just too many negative changes for these guys (Fewer trains, slower trains, fewer seats) at a time when rail travel generally is getting faster and more comfortable. I fear that Amersham man will feel he is being taken for granted, indeed the only happy traveller will be the peak time commuter to the city who will not have to change trains. The off peak traveller will not only have to suffer an extra ten minutes or so journey time but also the physical discomfort of more stops, each with the doors opening, cold air coming in, and passengers brushing past. In all cases there is, additionally, an increased chance of having to stand due to the absurd S8 seat arrangement. City workers excluded, the majority of passengers change trains in London so their arrival terminus is immaterial. If you are not careful Chiltern will increase their capacity to offer them a more comfortable journey and it will not be long before some LU bean counter queries the viability of that part of the line. |
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Post by redsetter on Nov 20, 2011 15:23:31 GMT
closure by stealth comes to mind,the problem with this people are going to start wondering what's going to happen next and rumours start to surface.just what are the proposals?.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2011 16:09:35 GMT
A lot of the "bad publicity" also seems to involve the peaks - which will still have fast trains from Amersham and Chesham. Whilst there are pros and cons with this timetable - which will all need to be seen in action - there are lots of people creating (not just on here) about something that will not be happening. I am not a resident on the Amersham/Chesham line but it seems to me that are just too many negative changes for these guys (Fewer trains, slower trains, fewer seats) Fewer trains??? Where did you get that information from??? There are more trains to Amersham from this timetable !!! By all means feel free to gripe about the cold and the backward step to an all slow railway, less seats and the extra minutes (it's actually +5 for Amersham, + 6 for Chesham - 'nearly 10' is a rather an exaggaration when talking in numbers this small) But please ... research the basic headline facts more thoroughly! |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 20, 2011 16:15:07 GMT
Fewer trains than there have been before...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2011 16:17:29 GMT
Fewer trains than there have been before... Since when? Bearing in mind that not too many years back (mid 80's), the off peak service to Amersham was 1tph ex Baker (not a personal memory, but someone told me this - I therefore stand to be corrected) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2011 19:27:58 GMT
For many years (12/10/64 to 11/5/87) Amersham had 1 A Stock and 1 Aylesbury service per hour off-peak Mon-Sat. Until c.1981/82, the A Stock was 4 cars only MF for most of the time (except for adverse weather).
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Post by t697 on Nov 20, 2011 21:12:20 GMT
For many years (12/10/64 to 11/5/87) Amersham had 1 A Stock and 1 Aylesbury service per hour off-peak Mon-Sat. Until c.1981/82, the A Stock was 4 cars only MF for most of the time (except for adverse weather). And engineering test trains could be and were fitted in just with a few telephone calls as a result! Not much fun for passengers waiting on platforms though. |
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Post by ruislip on Nov 20, 2011 22:05:00 GMT
For many years (12/10/64 to 11/5/87) Amersham had 1 A Stock and 1 Aylesbury service per hour off-peak Mon-Sat. And on Sundays during those days there was one fast train per hour and one all-stations train per hour (borrowed from the Watford branch). Wasn't the additional train used to compensate for British Rail only operating Aylesbury-Amersham on Sundays? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2011 22:14:08 GMT
Yep, spot on.
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Post by graeme186 on Nov 21, 2011 21:42:21 GMT
Following my summary of the revised peak hour services which started off this thread, I was wondering whether anyone had picked up on a feature about the AM peak service that may be worthy of some discussion?
Because the semi-fast service from Amersham is running through to Aldgate and also because of the decision to slightly reduce the number of through trains to Aldgate for City congestion relief purposes in the AM peak, there are three instances of a gap of 26/27 mins between Aldgate trains at all stations between Uxbridge and Wembley Park inclusive excluding Harrow-on-the-Hill.
Unless one is prepared to get on the first Baker Street train and change where necessary, on the Uxbridge Branch there is an instance of three Baker Street trains in succession and between Harrow and Wembley Park, an instance of four Baker Street trains in succession in each 32 minute cycle. The gaps are between the 0704 and 0731, 0737 and 0803 and 0808 and 0834 departures ex Uxbridge. There is also a long gap between Aldgate trains at the end of the AM peak between the 0841 and 0909 departures ex Uxbridge.
This is interesting because at off-peak times during a similar 26/27 minute interval, there will be occasions each hour of two Aldgate trains on the Uxbridge Branch and four Aldgate trains between Harrow and Wembley Park.
This feature is not repeated in the evening peak because the semi-fast Amersham trains start at Baker Street and there is no reduction in the number of trains between Baker Street and Aldgate for congestion relief purposes.
I should say again that the above is based on timings shown on Journey Planner and not the WTT.
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Post by citysig on Nov 21, 2011 23:28:20 GMT
Yes, looking at the timetable, there are lots of occasions of treble Baker Streets. All have "Harrow Shuffle" opportunities - whereby customers could change to a fast Aldgate at Harrow (although connections not guaranteed).
This kind of pattern has come about due to the way in which the other branches are now served, and it forms an interesting point. Uxbridge is left with basically a half-hourly city service during the morning peak, instead of a roughly 15-minute service before.
This change will be noted for the future. Whether a change will/can be made I cannot say.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2011 23:10:02 GMT
I am wondering just how much this is a reflection of TfL's lowest common multiple approach, that many people, not just DD readers or contributors, have beefed at the fact that TfL assumes the majority of its passenger traffic is short hop in-town distribution trips, so the number of standing passengers is nothing to worry about, it's inevitable etc, etc.
That was my reaction when I saw the S-Stock mock up, and my immediate reaction was what about Amersham, Watford, Uxbridge Passengers, how do they get their bums on seats? Compare this with someone whose commute is say, Ladbroke Grove to Euston Sq.
Fewer seats but higher frequencies in-town means more seated punters off peak, and a greater 'churn' at peaks, which means you may get a seat at a station where more passengers change.
It seems to me that fewer seats on S8s compared with A60/62 means that stopping more trains between Finchley Rd and Harrow on the Hill means more 'churn' at Wembley Park.
OK I may have put the wrong slant here, but this is exactly the philosophy behind the fewer harder seats on NLL 378s. It is ironic that TfL's research did not differentiate between the different travel patterns for different sections of the NLL. This enables TfL to justify its one type fits all approach. They have consistently moved away from the classic transverse bay in those parts of the car farthest from the doors. The S stock replaces 3 different types all with different seating plans.
Again remember what A stock replaced, a real mixture from Sarah Siddons' brothers and sisters on hauled compartment stock, T Stock, more Compartments, replaced by A60. O/P stock on Uxbridge trains, supported by F-stock at peaks, a very early high density layout for the District, was displaced by A62s. It was a bit of a surprise then that the 'one size fits all' approach was taken, giving Uxbridge trains a much higher seat to standing ratio than the stock it replaced.
Sorry this is a bit off this topic, but it could be behind the current reasoning with the new TTs. With TfL who knows their reasoning?
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Post by graeme186 on Nov 23, 2011 21:31:59 GMT
Noted at North Harrow and Croxley today - banners about 1 metre long tied to platform fence railings advertising the new Met Line TT.
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Post by citysig on Nov 23, 2011 22:10:37 GMT
Sorry this is a bit off this topic, but it could be behind the current reasoning with the new TTs. With TfL who knows their reasoning? The timetable has come about through campaigns by the local users groups, and was first "penned" before the S-stocks were delivered. Much as their introduction was known, and much as their future will see higher speeds and ability to run more trains, the new timetable is written very much with A-stock in mind - because they will still be (just) the majority stock operating. Also, the timetable is generally a product of the management of LU, not so much Tfl, though of course they are involved with developments. In this case, the ball was got rolling by the user group. Line Management looked into it. The matter then went further "upstairs." Then it came back down again to Line Management so that the core "objectives" of the timetable could be decided and sent to our timetables team to write a timetable. They did this, and a first draft was written. Then lots of meetings to discuss the finer points (and of course, point out the possible drawbacks - which myself and a colleague did ;D ). Then it went back for fine-tuning and to iron out some of the possible conflicts, and then it was published. This timetable won't suit everyone - but then I don't believe a timetable ever will. But one thing is for certain, and that is the timetable was heavily influenced by the demands of our customers - albeit a couple of user groups. |
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Post by redsetter on Nov 23, 2011 22:20:45 GMT
a number of chesham travellers would disagree with that statement.
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Post by causton on Nov 23, 2011 23:18:40 GMT
a number of chesham travellers would disagree with that statement. You can't disagree with it. It's a fact! If Chesham had a users group they either didn't shout, didn't shout loud enough, or didn't have enough people shouting unfortunately! Last thing I would want to be doing in the middle of the day or at night (remember, there are still fast trains at peaks) is crowding through Chalfont and waiting on a freezing platform in winter for the shuttle to come along, so if I were a Chesham traveller I would be grateful ;D |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 23, 2011 23:43:32 GMT
Wasn't that much longer beforehand that Watford South Jnct was replaced, was it? Someone must have had a face-palm moment there!
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Post by redsetter on Nov 24, 2011 0:26:58 GMT
or they weren't listened to.strange how they were when it came to the through train service .when the train of the future wasn't purpose built for that use is more muted.the shuttle was far from perfect but functional and any delays on that line were contained.
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Post by citysig on Nov 24, 2011 11:33:53 GMT
If Chesham had a users group they either didn't shout, didn't shout loud enough, or didn't have enough people shouting unfortunately! Oh they do indeed have a users group, and were very successful in getting the through services. Now, of course, they are regretting campaigning so hard. And before someone says it - again* - the through services were more a product of the users group campaign, and the S-stock capacity issue was a "happy coincidence." Had there never been a valid campaign by those in Chesham, then maybe, just maybe, the company would not have been so quick to dismiss a shuttle service on the branch, and may have looked into equipping Chalfont Bay platform for S-stock operation. *By again, I mean for around the 100th time since the shuttle was lost and this new timetable was revealed. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2011 15:17:30 GMT
a number of chesham travellers would disagree with that statement. My esteemed colleague has forgotten to mention the local MP for Pinner, who stated on his website that he will "continue to hold the feet of the Met line management to the fire"!! I've also heard he has been sticking his nose in elsewhere, particularly regarding the Eastcote Fair!  |
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