4-rail track without tears?

All live frog except double slips which are insulfrog I had enough with unreliable point switches and they are not easy to access! All stock on the layout has 8 wheel pick ups to minmise problems that said I do have issues with shorting on the points at times and then the DCC resets!

The tube stock is a nightmare with 2 motors and chips consisting does not seem to work too well with Tenshodo Motor bogies therefore on the 1938 stock Black Beetle motor bogies have been fitted to one unit with the other one due to follow shortly.

Xerces Fobe

Having only just read this thread may I be permitted to make the following comments. First of all, Metroland, your track looks pretty good to me. The ramps look fine and the method reasonably simple. The finescale options are all very well but can prove expensive and time-consuming if a larger layout is being attempted. The Peco chairs look like they would have issues with fragility if used on an exhibition layout although I am sure that the 'Bay Street' layout would have shown this up by now (Bay Street is the Southern Region based layout built by the Editor of Hornby magazine, Mike Wild).

For my layout I am planning to use Peco code 100 track. I have seen many layouts that use this and it looks fine so long as the weathering is done well. It will also give clearance to use the code 60 'juice' rail. Limited clearance is always a problem when running tube stock as both Tenshodo motor bogies and Radley Models trailing bogies are very low slung. It is always worth remembering that the centre rail should only be a scale half a millimetre above the running rails. If it was level I am sure that no-one would notice!

For my ramps I will be bending the rails on the ends for most part. I may experiment with soldering wider ramp surfaces on some of the more visible parts of the LT section but this may test my sanity to the extreme! I'll also experiment with widening the sleeper spaces as mentioned by Metman. The ratio of sleepers should work out at 24 per 60' length of track.

I shall be avoiding DCC as I have so much stock that McDonalds couldn't supply enough chips! The show layout will only have six turnouts and one double-slip so I am minded to go with electrofrogs throughout. My LT stock has Tenshodos for the most part. The motorised vehicles have at least two wired together. They seem to work well enough so long as the wheels are kept clean. The exception to this is my seven car Standard stock set. This has three DMs with a single Tenshodo in each. The trailing bogies have been fitted with pick-ups to help current collection. My seven car 38TS has the two 'A' end DMs powered with a pair of Tenshodos in each.

I must also take this opportunity to thank Metroland for willingly imparting his experience on the subject. It is easy to be critical of someones efforts but we must remember that different modellers will always have thier own preferences for ways of doing things. Experience, good and bad, is there to be learned from.

The art of illusion is something I am well versed in! Although I am not currently bulding a layout I have been converting and building stock for the best part of thirty years. It is always easier to create the illusion of perfection than it is to create perfection! Weathering comes in handy too. I have a number of items that have been weathered over bits of dodgy lining etc..

You are correct that the sleeper spacing of 24 per 60' may need to be 'adjusted' to suit the look of OO track. I also agree with your comment re. Bachmann locos and clearance over the centre juice rail. this is why I will probably have mine at the same height as the running rail. The outer rail will need some elevation to look right.

On the subject of that, did you experience any clearance problems with the pick-up shoes on EFE tube stock? They look like they hang too low down to me.

I have to say that whatever you are doing, it looks good to me! I love the idea of the disused siding as this is rarely seen on any layout. Most layout builders seem to want every inch of board somehow active with train movement and they sometimes forget that the railways were about much more than that. I have also seen some modellers get uppity about detail on locos and then run them on OO track! If these people are that pedantic then run on EM or P4 or the like!

There are, of course, always modellers who take it that step further. In 'Model Railway Constructor' mag many years ago there was an article about a model of a 508 EMU that not only worked off of the third rail but also had openning doors! A friend of mine used to work with a chap who built a class 74 that also worked off of the trird rail.... In 'N' gauge! It just proves the truth in the age-old tale of the Donkey. This donkey had an I.Q. of 498 but not a friend in the world. The reason? No-one likes a smart-ass!

P.S. I'd leave the sleepers.....

The EFE pick-up shoes look as if they are too far away from the the conductor rail. This is because of the too narrow gauge of British OO scale. EFE place the shoebeams in the correct position and measurements for the prototype, after all they are made as display models not intended for model railways. The problem arises with the use of track that is almost 3.5mm to narrow, if you place the conductor rail the correct distance from the running rail the shoe beam and the pick-up shoe if correctly placed will be waving about in mid air more than 1.6mm outside the conductor rail. Having said that the EFE shoe beams look far too conspicuous, and perhaps would benefit from a bit of slimming down and some weathering.

re the pick-up shoes, they are the right height when hanging without a conductor rail, which is why they are a tad low when the rail itself should be supporting them. They are also slightly inboard of where they should be as the width between the shoebeams is slightly undersize. If you use the metromodels bogie with the EFE sideframes grafted on this can be put right, although as said, the average viewer would be hard-pushed to see the shoes at all!

I'd completely forgotten that the issues of clearance with the outer rail weren't just about the grey beam but also the replacement Metromodels bogies.

It's tricky getting close enough to get the detail and keep focus but hopefully this is what I mean:


You will see that the grey beam which has been cut and re-glued is actually wide of the 4th rail but the edge of the 'square' replacement bogie underneath is very close to rubbing the outer rail.

I hope you all won't mind me repeating a pic from other thread but to give an almost side-by-side comparison, here is 'normal viewing distance' where the incorrect position of grey beam doesn't show:

Mmm, cabinets ? First of all a little terminology, the site of signalling equipment (the relays, capacitors and transformers) is known as a signal location (even if there is not a signal there!), the cabinets are actually called Kiosks and Cases.

A case may be a transformer (T) case, a condenser (capacitor or TH) case or a relay (TR, GR, PGR etc) case. A typical LT standard signal location would have one transformer case two condenser cases and two track relay cases because a transformer feeds two adjacent track circuits. If there is also a signal at the location then then will also be a signal relay case, alternatively a repeating signal location may simply be a single PGR relay case or possibly a PGR case with an adjacent transformer case.

In a standard location the transformer case is usually the centre case of five cases and above it a 600v link box which is connected to the local signal main 600vac supply. The condenser cases may be one either side with the track relay cases at each end or an alternative arrangement (there are standards but it really depends upon who did the original installation and the arrangement does vary from line to line and site to site).

Where there are points and other circuits the relays are generally within the local interlocking machine room (IMR) or signal cabin relay room in open sections.

Modern Kiosks, mounted on concrete plinths, are generally a complete replacement for a signal location containing the 600v signal main connection links, the 600/100v transformer, the track condensers and the track relays etc. Where there is a signal or repeating signal at such a location it can be mounted immediately atop the kiosk and the kiosk will also. contain the GR or PGR relay.
Older type kiosks mounted on a concrete base usually contain the condensers and relays for two track circuits or several miscellaneous or other relays.

It is difficult to be specific about what is contained at each location so it is not straightforward to illustrate the rhyme or reason for positioning of signal equipment but I'll do my best.

Think signalling! Start with auto as all it needs are TRs and GRs. A signal has a limit of control or 'selection' and that selection is all the track circuits from and including its replacement track up to and including the replacing track of the signal ahead. The selection may contain anything from three or more track circuits so if there are say four track circuits in the selection then four TRs are required and a 'location' normally sits close to the boundary of two adjacent 'tracks', the location will be the standard five case layout if it is somewhere between signals but if it is at a signal position then it may be a six case layout TR,TH,T,TH,TR,GR or alternatively it may be a single 'track' four case location, say TH,T,TR,GR.
Similarly where there is a repeating signal it may simply be a single location case with a PGR or it might be a four case location, PGR, TH,T, TR if the track relay is also mounted at the same point.

As a rough rule of thumb the above is quite authentic for say North Ealing to South Harrow on the Picc.

Taking South Ealing to Northfields and beyond the signal equipment is generally in kiosks so on average one kiosk every two 'tracks' per road would be expected and that is pretty much the case. With four tracking, kiosks for two adjacent roads are often found in the same 'location' side by side and sometimes a third kiosk will contain additional circuitry e.g timing section relays and inductor circuit amplifiers etc on the approach to a controlled area.

In controlled areas (basically where there are converging and diverging routes, sidings etc) most of the relays are housed in rooms as mentioned previously but there will still be some track relays outside and some signal relays too although modern practice is to have as little equipment at trackside as possible. However, where there are long distances between stations it is not really possible to avoid trackside locations, e.g. on the Met.

There are thus judgements to be made according to the line and the time that is being depicted although one must not forget that there are exceptions to every rule and and we used to say on signals, "If one exists then it is a standard!".

Down the tube it is much the same but generally a location will contain two track circuits the signal and any ancillary equipment arranged in familiar layout on the tunnel wall. Other equipment is mounted in end of platform tube relay rooms and IMRs reducing what has to be mounted in the rather inaccessible tunnel locations.

Another thing to consider where you have points is the old 'hot oil' point heater consoles which were generally one console per end of points usually mounted very near to each end and sometimes in clusters of twos and threes. Modern point heater cubicles are basically transformer cubicles feeding strip heaters clipped to the switch rails and mounted further away than the old consoles were, each serving multiple ends of points.

Another point to note is that signal cases and kiosks are painted silver and telephone cases and kiosks are painted green. Telephone kit is also seen trackside using identical kiosks but housing cable main distribution frames (MDFs), pulse code modulation repeaters (cylindrical grey housings bolted on the outside), there are also "cow's udder" telephone cable link boxes and station to station headwall phones in green relay type cases at platform headwalls (not nowadays as they were replaced by green or grey weatherproof phones in the 1980s). There were also such things as channel change beacons for the old train radio system which had equipment in grey painted standard Westinghouse relay cases.


Hopefully the above will go some way towards helping you populate your layout.

many thanks Railtechnician, very useful info for we modellers.

On the subject of shoe positioning, here is a photo of my prototype conversion grafting the EFE sideframes onto the Metromodels bogie.



The trick is to thin the sides down to the point where the outside of the shoebeams line up with the outside of the solebar, as they do on the real thing




As I model in EM, this puts the shoes in the right place relative to the conductor rail. I showed my prototype to John Polley when he visited me last year, and it was from here that he developed his "product", albeit slightly different to mine-I use the bogie upside down to give more clearance above the centre conductor rail, etc

Not quite - it's the compressed air main.

Neilw: Thanks for the pics - I guess we have quite similar solutions.

I could never get the grey beams to line up with the side of the cars and my 1938 stock will probably need attention next winter to narrow them down at bogie height.

After about 10 cars I got a bit better and although my 1962 stock still doesn't line up precisely with the edge of the car, it is getting there I think.

The air main carries compressed air for things like trainstops and proper points (air-operated ones). Hence is like M said, metal hollow tube. You'll see stop valves at various points along it for isolating a leak.

I thought long and hard about the Radley hangers which seem a bit large. However there's so much to do and so many compromises to make (for those of us who can't face EM ) that I decided to go with them. Am hoping that in time, when I come back to them I'll be able to weather them in a way which makes them fade into the background a bit more.

If you look further back in the topics (not too long ago) you will find a detailed account that I gave of what is to be found in the cable runs. I explained cables, their numbers, sizes, usage etc and their standard positioning when someone asked about the bracket runs.

Specifically the air main in the top shelf of the 4 way signal bracket run is 1.5 ID galvanised pipe (about 2" OD) red lead undercoated and then finished in silver paint.

Note that the air main is only in the top shelf in open sections, in tunnel sections it is in the bottom shelf !


Edited to suggest: Try looking back through the images in the quiz section for photos showing signal locations etc , also check the flickr webpages too. When I get a minute I'll see if I can find any and point them out but I'm a little busy playing with other things at present.

I’ve been sidetracked a bit this winter by building a little demo stand ‘How To Cheat At 4 -Rail’ (with apologies to Delia).

An exhibition is being arranged by Xerces Fobe 2 of this board 19May2012 near Maidenhead:
www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46957-thames-valley-model-rail-expo-2012-19th-may-2012-knowl-hill-near-maidenhead-berkshire/page__hl__%2Bthames+%2Bvalley__fromsearch__1

The display is a fairly straightforward setup with Peco 100 at the bottom, untouched.




The middle level has the track ballasted and the rails left un-weathered, but with track pins showing how I hold the bits in place whilst glue is setting. (They’re a bit dark in the pictures - not sure if I’ll try and find coloured pins for display or keep with the track pins. These are after all what I’ve used, and I’m trying to show people how you can follow the KISS principle and get something with ’the look’)

The top level has 2 tracks with a crossover, ballasted and weathered, but should be within the capabilities of anyone. All track parts are either cut, glued, pinned, filed or bent. No soldering, and it’s all in OO. In anyone’s motivated to have a go with soldering, or EM or P4 etc etc then so much the better, but this is all about low-tech.



On the day I hope to have some relevant stock on the RH end of each track.

If you are attending please drop by.