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Post by 21146 on May 13, 2010 23:08:02 GMT
I still remember when the "light box" train describer (which I always called the "black glass" describer) were the in-thing. Dating from the early-1960s, possibly earlier, they were still being installed well into the 1970s (e.g. Heathrow Central). These used a unique extra-thin version of Johnston on the back-lit panels, with destinations illuminated by fluorescent tubes, but the "1", "2", "3" )if fitted) provided by tungsten bulbs. The sign at Kings Cross (Met) concourse had the latter reading as "1 st", "2 nd" etc, possibly the prototype? The relentless advance of the dot-matrix indicator has culled many of these, sadly to me as the new medium cannot replicate the Johnston typeface properly (and though arrival time is an advantage, many sites do not have the technology to allow this). The surviving examples are in a pretty poor state now; tubes/bulbs blown, glass cracked, bastard feeds causing incorrect displays; a testament to LU's lack of maintenance. Those that remain tend to be in areas close to converging junctions, where it's not possible to show accurate arrival times and trains only appear at the last minute. Just how many stations retain these in 2010? www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4604701836/www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4604698154/
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 14, 2010 0:40:33 GMT
Let's see how observant I am on the District (excluding the Edgware Road branch as I no longer drive along it) - I think only the following platforms have a glass box, or something similar such as at Earls Court (apologies if I've missed one or two): Station | Eastbound | Westbound | Earls Court | Working | Working | Gloucester Road | ---- | No Longer works, or if it does, Ealing doesn't | Cannon Street | ---- | Works - includes 1,2 & 3 as well | Aldgate East | Working | Working | Whitechapel | Working | Working | Stepney Green | Working | ---- | Bromley by Bow | Working | ---- | Upton Park | Working | Working - only shows Met or District | East Ham | Working | Working - only shows Met or District | Barking | Hasn't worked for years | Hasn't worked for years | Upney | Think it no longer works | ---- |
As for terminal stations, both Ealing Broadway and Upminster's next platform boxes work.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on May 14, 2010 6:27:44 GMT
I am sure that when I last looked, ages ago, Hounslow West's EB one had been changed since it was originally installed. When new there were Hyde Park Corner and Kings Cross terminators. I assume that there is still a light box there today? There were of course two at Hatton Cross when the station was built: is there even one left now?
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metman
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Post by metman on May 14, 2010 9:07:26 GMT
The ones at Harrow are doing quite well. They have them in the booking hall too. I love them. We have new DMI at Northwood and they just do nothing (and won't till the upgrade is complete). Even the time is wrong.
The Harrow ones are very useful and thankfully for my model railway are 'easy' to replicate!
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DWS
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Post by DWS on May 14, 2010 9:30:32 GMT
Let's see how observant I am on the District (excluding the Edgware Road branch as I no longer drive along it) - I think only the following platforms have a glass box, or something similar such as at Earls Court (apologies if I've missed one or two): Station | Eastbound | Westbound | Earls Court | Working | Working | Gloucester Road | ---- | No Longer works, or if it does, Ealing doesn't | Cannon Street | ---- | Works - includes 1,2 & 3 as well | Aldgate East | Working | Working | Whitechapel | Working | Working | Stepney Green | Working | ---- | Bromley by Bow | Working | ---- | Upton Park | Working | Working - only shows Met or District | East Ham | Working | Working - only shows Met or District | Barking | Hasn't worked for years | Hasn't worked for years | Upney | Think it no longer works | ---- |
As for terminal stations, both Ealing Broadway and Upminster's next platform boxes work. The box on the eastbound at East Ham has the Upminster tube only working on the side that the Train Operator would see, the other side is not working. Still this should be reported by station staff
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Post by 21146 on May 14, 2010 10:42:28 GMT
I think Upney to Dagenham Heathway have these on the E/B. It was always frustrating when I lived at the latter there was nothing on the far busier W/B to indicate a train's imminent arrival. So many have tubes blown or glass cracked now with no sign of replacement. At Whitechapel W/B IIRC I think there was a central back-lit header reading "FIRST TRAIN OUT" to cater for the two-road platform which worked in conjunction with arrows pointing to either 3 or 4. The "First Train...." hasn't lit up for years and you're lucky if a destination or arrows illuminates today.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on May 14, 2010 10:57:09 GMT
Are there still two, or one even, at Heathrow T123?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 14, 2010 12:34:10 GMT
I think Upney to Dagenham Heathway have these on the E/B. It was always frustrating when I lived at the latter there was nothing on the far busier W/B to indicate a train's imminent arrival. So many have tubes blown or glass cracked now with no sign of replacement. At Whitechapel W/B IIRC I think there was a central back-lit header reading "FIRST TRAIN OUT" to cater for the two-road platform which worked in conjunction with arrows pointing to either 3 or 4. None of these have lit up for years and you're lucky if a destination illuminates today. I'm fairly certain Dagenham Heathway has a [non working] Dot matrix for the eastbound now - certainly the westbound there has a [non working] Dot matrix. I must confess I'm not sure about Becontree, which is why I left it out of the table above. I suspect it has non working Dot matrix's on both platforms now - I'll pay more attention when I drive through there later, unless someone beats me to it with confirmation. As for Whitechapel, you are indeed correct in what you say about the westbound box, though it does more often than not display a destination even if it's after the train has fully berthed in the platform - the key here is the reliance on the signalman in setting up missing TD's.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on May 14, 2010 12:57:41 GMT
Surely these boxes conform more to LULs bible of corporate identity, including as they do the font?
It'll be interesting to see whether in say 20 years time having TFT or LCD screens could replace DMIs and be the perfect digital replacement to the lightboxes and destination 'blinds'. In fact I'd hazard a guess that there must be someone somewhere doing an assessment for this, given that 'line status' display boards must use a suitably robust form of display unit?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 13:44:22 GMT
I liked the light boxes they had on the Northern line in the 70,s. First train : Barnet branch, or Edgware line no specific destination, also I remember at some stations, Kennington, Waterloo etc it used to come up with "Train approaching".
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Post by 21146 on May 14, 2010 14:26:29 GMT
Ah the ones at Heathrow Central which showed "PICCADILLY LINE for CENTRAL LONDON" for all trains beyond Acton Town.
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Post by 21146 on May 14, 2010 14:28:26 GMT
Out-of use at High Barnet on the footbridge?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 15:18:19 GMT
I think I agree with Colin's original grid !
Upney e/b definately still has the lightbox, but it's one of those where the characters appear to be white and not shaded, so it's hard to tell if they are being back lit or not, however I don't think it was working when i last looked at it.
i don't think any of the stations east of Upney still have them, but of the dot maxtrix replacements, I recollect the other day noticing only one was working, which I think was Becontree e/b (showing the destination but, of course, no arrival time estimates)
At Whitechapel w/b the "Arrow" for Platform 3 works, but not platform 4, that's been the case as long as I can remember.
The boxes at Barking are (when back lit) blue, being of the old BR Eastern Region style (There is, or was, even one for platform 3, still in situ when I last looked). These haven't worked in donkey's years! Apparently there is a dispute between TfL and C2C over who is responsible for the provision of information here. Pending which none is provided!
Gloucester Road, The bulb for the arrow for Ealing Broadway failed first, then Richmond and then Wimbledon. None of which have worked for at least 6 months now. Not sure if the likes of Parsons Green still work.
The "1" "2" "3" bulbs at Cannon Street are a bit hit and miss, usually with more not working than are !!!
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 14, 2010 15:46:48 GMT
Add Barons Court WB to the DR list.
There is also the one at High Street Kensington OR, which was amended in December to show: CIRCLE LINE to EDGWARE ROAD
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 14, 2010 20:09:47 GMT
As has already been said above, I can now confirm that Upney is the last station on the Eastbound District to have a light box on the platform. The box on the eastbound at East Ham has the Upminster tube only working on the side that the Train Operator would see, the other side is not working. Still this should be reported by station staff Not too sure what side you are referring to, but my Upminster train this evening was showing on both sides of the light box at East Ham Eastbound this evening at about 19.55 - I would therefore suggest the defect you saw has now been rectified, probably as a result of station staff reporting it I'd imagine! ;D ;D Upney e/b definately still has the lightbox, but it's one of those where the characters appear to be white and not shaded, so it's hard to tell if they are being back lit or not, however I don't think it was working when i last looked at it. Having checked this evening, it was working - and that was at 8pm when it was effectively daylight still!! Looking at it from the east, it does indeed appear to be missing a top cover of dark film to mask the writing unless being lit; the other side is correctly masked and looks as it should both when lit and unlit.
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Post by 21146 on May 14, 2010 20:52:58 GMT
Whitechapel E/B still going strong tonight, complete with "UPMINSTER" in ultra-thin upper case Johnston.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 15, 2010 15:08:26 GMT
still being installed well into the 1970s (e.g. Heathrow Central). I remember seeing, just before Heathrow Central opened, someone carrying a glass screen with the various Piccadilly destinations on it, including Heathrow Central: presumably to replae one with "Hatton Cross" on it. No need for any re-programming, just change the text in front of the lamp!
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Post by 21146 on May 15, 2010 21:12:39 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 17:21:11 GMT
Not being local to London, I much appreciated the pictures of the light box describers. Personally, I think they look very modern.
Just wondering - anyone written a book about all the different types of train describers in the UK? Or even just the Underground?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 16, 2010 19:37:13 GMT
Just wondering - anyone written a book about all the different types of train describers in the UK? Or even just the Underground? Try www.metadyne.co.uk/Dist_signs.html for really the tip of the iceberg. There were other forms of train description on the Combine - Motorman operated plungers (Mornington Crescent, Shadwell and Deptford Road), although whether these plungers activated anything to do with the passenger is a moot point. In conjunction with the RSTD [1] there was a minimum installation per station as evidenced here: Woodside Park[/b] High BarnetIn each case you have platform signs (PS) , transmitters and receivers (T and R); note that High Barnet had a transmitter only and worked three separate light boxes, together with three separate First Train Displays. Woodside Park would have been able to switch out, which is why the contact on the king lever is included in the RSTD line. RSTD grew out of the earlier combinators and receivers used by the District Railway system - AI uploaded a copy of the Jubilee of Automatic Signalling in this thread - pages 9 and 10 are the ones you need. p9 shows a District platform display and p10 gives you a picture at the bottom of the storage drums. These were 4 sprung pins that were hit by hammers in accordance with the TD code (A, AB, BCD and so on) each combination of letter was specific to a particular destination or stopping pattern. The sprung pins were the storage mechanism, after use the pins restored back to their original position ready to be used again. RSTD was a slighly different version insofar as there were 12 separate combinations made by studs, a Central example: The keen-eyed amongst you will note the ability to set up a code for Denham! Somewhere I've seen a picture of the innards of an RSTD machine (I've got the patent somewhere in the library) but they were essentially wiper contacts that could be set up by using one of these or mounted above the frame as in this picture. That's only really scratching the surface, because there are ABCD, ABCDE and 1 out of 12 train decriptions - but all the punters would see are either the light boxes or the District type describers. It is salient to remember that something devised in the years leading up to WW1 is still in use today as the codes have been transferred for programme machine working and computer operation. It is also worth referring to this link which covers the destinations that could be set up from Baker Street, and drove huge lightboxes (ie the 'traffic notice' signs) mentioned on the panel. ISTR that 21146 or Harsig found a picture of the bank of signs/lightboxes on Baker Street platforms. If I get chance I'll put on my thread archaeology scruffs and go digging to find that reference. I'm sorry that this thread has only just scratched the surface, and only mentions UndergrounD 'signalling of the passenger'. Hopefully some useful pointers, though. [1] Ribbon Storage T rain Describer.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on May 17, 2010 7:21:12 GMT
Ribbon Storage Train Describers used a reel of paper tape, holes were punched into tape for the codes. The paper had to be renewed weekly by the Train Describer Linesman.
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Post by Harsig on May 17, 2010 8:53:49 GMT
ISTR that 21146 or Harsig found a picture of the bank of signs/lightboxes on Baker Street platforms. If I get chance I'll put on my thread archaeology scruffs and go digging to find that reference. This Thread was where I posted the link to an image of the old describers at Baker St, actually on the main concourse rather than the platforms. i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/Harsig/DNS_4350_12_94.jpg
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Post by 21146 on May 17, 2010 9:25:53 GMT
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metman
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Post by metman on May 17, 2010 18:24:13 GMT
Wembley Park used to have them too?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 17, 2010 21:07:58 GMT
Ribbon Storage Train Describers used a reel of paper tape, holes were punched into tape for the codes. The paper had to be renewed weekly by the Train Describer Linesman. An absolute pig of a job by all accounts - quite involved circuitry too. You will find that buried deep in the DMI system that the nucleus of the RSTD codes survive to this day! In some cases transferred to P/Mc working.
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Post by ruislip on May 18, 2010 2:37:04 GMT
Wembley Park used to have them too? And so did Finchley Rd IIRC.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 18, 2010 15:52:53 GMT
Yes, I remember them!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on May 18, 2010 16:31:38 GMT
The ones at Finchley Road were there till the refurb, great big yellow ones, still had Aylesbury as a destination on them I think. And the hutchinson-esque line diagrams. I wonder where it all ended up.
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Post by 21146 on May 19, 2010 19:54:40 GMT
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Post by plasmid on May 19, 2010 22:45:21 GMT
East Ham eastbound lightbox "Upminster" light has blown within the last 2 weeks. Only the Barking light shows.
I should know as I get off and on at East Ham every weekday!
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