towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,970
|
Post by towerman on Nov 20, 2009 19:39:47 GMT
New WTT starting 7th March.Main changes,30tph west of Liverpool St will only operate 08:10 to 09:10,the evening peak service is 29tph 17:00 to 19:00.Offpeak & weekend service patterns unchanged.It gives the WTT number as 53 surely a misprint.
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Nov 21, 2009 1:18:35 GMT
It gives the WTT number as 53 surely a misprint. At least it isn't 52B. Did the compiler base it on 52 and forget to correct the number?   ;D |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2009 9:58:18 GMT
Should be No.65 in the normal numbering scheme of things.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Nov 21, 2009 16:22:52 GMT
So much for progress - a reduced service. What happened to the promised 30tph peak service both ways from 4pm to 7pm?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2009 19:46:42 GMT
... or was it even 33 tph in the original "Towards 2000" 'spin' ??
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282 
|
Post by Ben on Nov 21, 2009 20:09:08 GMT
Who was it that commented about the central line upgrade that "after several million pounds spent on it, the central line works almost as well as before"?
Also, would the central line actually have enough trains available for service to run 33tph?
|
|
|
|
Post by plasmid on Nov 21, 2009 21:57:23 GMT
this reminds me of a poster i've seen on the underground, ghandi chap.
something along the line of "there's more to life than increasing it's speed"
so basically what they are saying is "by reducing the speed of the trains, we can run them past the life expired date".
was the 30tph not based on the original design speed of the stock?
by the way i don't know where you get the "promised 30 tph" from but on tfl's website they say "up to 30tph" on the central line.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Nov 21, 2009 22:56:54 GMT
The 30tph in both directions promise was on some press releases a few years ago (yes, the promise was originally 33tph). I wrote to TFL in 2006, when the current timetable was brought in, to ask when this would happen. I was told that the power needed further upgrade work, and that this would be done by 2011, when the service would be improved.
I daresay the demise of Metronet has put paid to this. I will be writing another letter to TFL, asking them to explain themselves. After £750 million pounds spent, the peak service is still below that what was provided up until the late 1970's.
|
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Nov 26, 2009 19:12:23 GMT
Central Line re-signalling was specified at 35 TPH from the technical viewpoint.
That is the figure quoted in contemporary IRSE technical papers, and I am sure if I mine deep enough amid the binders in Wood Lane I could find a specification that states that.
I am not saying 35 TPH is acheivable in the real world nor am I saying it was publicised, merely that it was specified at system level.
--
Nick
|
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Nov 26, 2009 19:27:46 GMT
I've also found out  this week I'm involved with the technical  aspects of WTT65 I'll keep you posted where I am able to ;D -- Nick |
|
|
|
Post by plasmid on Nov 27, 2009 16:31:09 GMT
35TPH would be incredible and put the new Jubilee line ATO to shame with their "a train every 2 minutes".
Though in order to acheive this I think an oyster-brain is needed for the human brain.
Allow me to explain the presense of this comedy club...
A human walks into the Underground and swipes their head on a pink oyster-brain reader. The reader automatically configures the human brain to obey the rules of the Central Line in order to reduce delays, these are as follows...
1) Stand behind the yellow line (trains may enter slowly when people stand in front of the yellow line either because of overcrowding, nimwits or in case of a possible 'one under')
2) Do not block the doors from closing (thus preventing delays from the train departing and the next train entering)
3) Do not lean heavily on the doors (otherwise the train will stall for obvious reasons)
4) Passengers on the platform should stand aside of the doors (standing in front of the doors causes longer dwell times as passengers can't step off the train onto the platform - Yes you Mile End Offenders know who you are.)
Then when the human exits the station, they swipe their head on another pink oyster-brain reader which configures the human brain for normal use.
There are many other rules but if the human brain can register these rules then 35TPH would be possible.
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Nov 27, 2009 17:54:14 GMT
I must admit - I like the suggestion of the pink reader. It would force good door discipline on the riders with a train every 1' 42.8" |
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Nov 27, 2009 17:55:54 GMT
35TPH would be incredible and put the new Jubilee line ATO to shame with their "a train every 2 minutes". You are not comparing like for like there. The Central Line technical specification refers to an /ability/ to operate 35 TPH. The directly equivalent value for the Jubilee is 36 TPH. These values are what the *system* can deal with - and thats always higher than what is practical, and certainly higher than what is needed. -- Nick |
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Nov 27, 2009 17:56:46 GMT
35TPH would be incredible and put the new Jubilee line ATO to shame with their "a train every 2 minutes". You are not comparing like for like there. The Central Line technical specification refers to an /ability/ to operate 35 TPH. The directly equivalent value for the current Jubilee Line project is 36 TPH. These values are what the *system* is specified to be able to deal with - and thats always higher than what is practical on a continuous basis. -- Nick |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2009 14:25:21 GMT
35TPH would be incredible and put the new Jubilee line ATO to shame with their "a train every 2 minutes". Though in order to acheive this I think an oyster-brain is needed for the human brain. Allow me to explain the presense of this comedy club... A human walks into the Underground and swipes their head on a pink oyster-brain reader. The reader automatically configures the human brain to obey the rules of the Central Line in order to reduce delays, these are as follows... 1) Stand behind the yellow line (trains may enter slowly when people stand in front of the yellow line either because of overcrowding, nimwits or in case of a possible 'one under') 2) Do not block the doors from closing (thus preventing delays from the train departing and the next train entering) 3) Do not lean heavily on the doors (otherwise the train will stall for obvious reasons) 4) Passengers on the platform should stand aside of the doors (standing in front of the doors causes longer dwell times as passengers can't step off the train onto the platform - Yes you Mile End Offenders know who you are.) Then when the human exits the station, they swipe their head on another pink oyster-brain reader which configures the human brain for normal use. There are many other rules but if the human brain can register these rules then 35TPH would be possible. There is another cause of delay which holds trains up. The insistance of passengers who wish to travel in the car nearest the exit. This causes the train to stand with all but one car doors clear whilst that one car empties out and refils. |
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Nov 28, 2009 15:50:02 GMT
35TPH would be incredible and put the new Jubilee line ATO to shame with their "a train every 2 minutes". Though in order to acheive this I think an oyster-brain is needed for the human brain. Allow me to explain the presense of this comedy club... A human walks into the Underground and swipes their head on a pink oyster-brain reader. The reader automatically configures the human brain to obey the rules of the Central Line in order to reduce delays, these are as follows... 1) Stand behind the yellow line (trains may enter slowly when people stand in front of the yellow line either because of overcrowding, nimwits or in case of a possible 'one under') 2) Do not block the doors from closing (thus preventing delays from the train departing and the next train entering) 3) Do not lean heavily on the doors (otherwise the train will stall for obvious reasons) 4) Passengers on the platform should stand aside of the doors (standing in front of the doors causes longer dwell times as passengers can't step off the train onto the platform - Yes you Mile End Offenders know who you are.) Then when the human exits the station, they swipe their head on another pink oyster-brain reader which configures the human brain for normal use. There are many other rules but if the human brain can register these rules then 35TPH would be possible. There is another cause of delay which holds trains up. The insistance of passengers who wish to travel in the car nearest the exit. This causes the train to stand with all but one car doors clear whilst that one car empties out and refils. Absolutely Jim - saw this first hand today on the Picc, it was at least 30 seconds from the other cars becoming clear until the final one. May not sound much, but if you're trying to run a 35tph service, it's goodnight! |
|
SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
|
Post by SE13 on Nov 28, 2009 17:10:45 GMT
Ah, but more tph means less passengers per train which means less dwell time........
In theory!
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Nov 28, 2009 20:00:56 GMT
Ah, but more tph means less passengers per train which means less dwell time........ In theory! Sounds like a chicken and egg scenario! To increase the service, you'd have to reduce the passengers in order to imprive the dwell time! |
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Nov 28, 2009 20:33:44 GMT
Perhaps its the case that the efficiency of tph takes a dip at 26-40 ish before rising again. Certainly if there was a train every minute there would be half the people and potential for problems. I wonder if any crowd modeling has occured to find what ranges are feasable??
|
|
|
|
Post by edwin on Nov 28, 2009 23:06:01 GMT
A simple solution to reduce dwell times is to be more aggressive with the doors... Passengers will soon learn that the doors won't wait for them and quicken the pace.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Nov 28, 2009 23:28:43 GMT
A simple solution to reduce dwell times is to be more aggressive with the doors... Passengers will soon learn that the doors won't wait for them and quicken the pace. I agree, but they are too safety conscious I'm afraid! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 17:40:35 GMT
Sorry but our average dwell time is about 15 seconds from doors open. You can't nip any more time off dwell times. Weekend times need to be reduced, why does the WER road need a train every 8 minutes on a Sunday when, on a Monday to Saturday they run every 10 minutes?
The assests are degrading because of the over intensive work. £150 million on refurbished trucks but nothing else on a tired fleet.
Clever manipulation of the TTN working shorts trips and feeders, should be the way forward. The Central line 92 TS has the worst reliability record over the combine. They need TLC!
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Nov 29, 2009 18:15:07 GMT
Sorry but our average dwell time is about 15 seconds from doors open. You can't nip any more time off dwell times. Weekend times need to be reduced, why does the WER road need a train every 8 minutes on a Sunday when, on a Monday to Saturday they run every 10 minutes? The assests are degrading because of the over intensive work. £150 million on refurbished trucks but nothing else on a tired fleet. Clever manipulation of the TTN working shorts trips and feeders, should be the way forward. The Central line 92 TS has the worst reliability record over the combine. They need TLC! It's the dwell times at the busy stations in the peak hours that prevent higher frequencies. You can have 30 stations operating a 15 second dwell time, but it only takes one station on the whole line with a 30 second dwell time to stuff the service. On the Central, places like Liverpool Street and Bank are the problem. The Central does use a fair bit of short tripping as it is, and the West Ruislip branch has a 6-7 minute frequency (9 tph) during the off peak on Mondays to Fridays, not the 10 minute service you quote. |
|
|
|
Post by edwin on Nov 29, 2009 22:49:56 GMT
It's the dwell times at the busy stations in the peak hours that prevent higher frequencies. You can have 30 stations operating a 15 second dwell time, but it only takes one station on the whole line with a 30 second dwell time to stuff the service. On the Central, places like Liverpool Street and Bank are the problem. Exactly. You see in the metro systems worldwide with the highest frequencies the doors never stay open for longer than 20-25secs. Often in London it can be up to 40secs at the busiest stations. |
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Nov 30, 2009 0:44:47 GMT
Sorry but our average dwell time is about 15 seconds from doors open. Obviously you've got an awful lot more experience than I, but my average door-open time for the Central is nearer 20 secs - it hovers between 18.2 - 21.4 average on my occasional trundles on this line; although with ¼ min resolution 15 seconds and multiples thereof are the only time that matters - everything else is just padding! |
|
|
|
Post by ruislip on Nov 30, 2009 1:13:07 GMT
The Central does use a fair bit of short tripping as it is, and the West Ruislip branch has a 6-7 minute frequency (9 tph) during the off peak on Mondays to Fridays, not the 10 minute service you quote. Does that include the Northolt reversers? |
|
|
|
Post by plasmid on Nov 30, 2009 12:05:08 GMT
Didn't someone say that they recently reduced the door pressures on the Central Line trains? I don't think it's helping much, the doors take forever to close when people block them now.
With fast doors people learn a lesson. Like when parents clip the back of a childs head.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2009 16:26:03 GMT
There have been NO mods made to door closure speeds, or pressure. About two years ago a door closure timer relay was added by fleet, hence the anoying 2 second delay from pressing the doors close in the cab, to actually starting to close. I have had a train where a rucksack was stuck in the door, passenger rushed in last minute, he was inside the rest of the bag was outside and I had a pilot light plus forward movement. It was in a blind spot and only noticable once the train had moved. But yet some trains a coat caught between the rubbers, then pulled out will cause loss of pilot light
As for the West Ruislip branch, that great work of fiction known as the Timetable notice, may differ from the real world of a 10 minute peak to WER and off peak 15 minute. I challenge you to stand under a DMI and watch on a normal day. I could understand if you factor in NOR reversers an increase in frequency.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Nov 30, 2009 18:36:54 GMT
There have been NO mods made to door closure speeds, or pressure. About two years ago a door closure timer relay was added by fleet, hence the anoying 2 second delay from pressing the doors close in the cab, to actually starting to close. I have had a train where a rucksack was stuck in the door, passenger rushed in last minute, he was inside the rest of the bag was outside and I had a pilot light plus forward movement. It was in a blind spot and only noticable once the train had moved. But yet some trains a coat caught between the rubbers, then pulled out will cause loss of pilot light As for the West Ruislip branch, that great work of fiction known as the Timetable notice, may differ from the real world of a 10 minute peak to WER and off peak 15 minute. I challenge you to stand under a DMI and watch on a normal day. I could understand if you factor in NOR reversers an increase in frequency. With the NOR reversers, it is supposed to be 12tph. To make up the 24tph off peak service, 9tph come from Ealing, with 3tph starting from White City. Fair enough, you may get some 10 minute gaps, but this is interspersed with some shorter gaps of maybe 3 minutes. When I have been on the WER branch, there has never been a regular 15 min service off peak since the current timetable was introduced in 2006. A cancellation will result in a 12 - 14 minute service, but these are by no means regular. |
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Dec 18, 2009 18:03:16 GMT
a train every 1' 42.8" Joking aside  some of the engineering activity on WTT65 *does* involve timings down to the one second ;D guess who has to do some of this -- Nick |
|
;D
this week I'm involved with the technical 
aspects of WTT65 I'll keep you posted 
some of the engineering activity on WTT65 *does* involve timings down to the one second ;D guess who has to do some of this 
