New vandalism on the lines

We shouldn't draw attention to those depots that are hit most (i.e. easiest to get into) but I have to say I've seen A, C and D Stock in service with whole side 'pieces', lately. Whatever happened to the District Line "clean car" policy I wonder?

There was some historic graffitti on Ladbroke Grove Station in the mid 1970's (maybe move this to the historic section) which said words to the effect of, and this was in ornate hand writing down a door)
" I like to see the birds in the sky; I like to see cows grazing in the meadow; I like to hear the lambs cry et al all the way down the door, all very poetic.

At the bottom of the door, scrawled in in black felt pen; "I like t*t and b*m mags" (edited to keep the forum clean).

If i were to choose between a clean fleet or a few delays, i know were my money is!

ALL graffiti is offensive, whatever it 'says'.

Why are depots under a constraint of time to clean graffiti? It should take as long as it takes!!

Otherwise we will be slowly sinking back to the mid-late 1980s when more and more trains were left un-cleaned because of the 'limited timespan available' and work piling up around their ears!

Get a grip before it's too late!
New York suffered this in the early 1970s- but finally thankfully (granted very late!) introduced their "clean car programme". This moved around each depot in turn firstly securing it with 12' double fences with razor-wire, some even had dogs patrolling the gap between the fence!. They then kept ALL trains in that depot until every one was fully cleaned. After releasing them they moved onto the next depot. The released trains were constantly watched while in service, any found with any sort of mark inside or out were either dealt with at a terminus or sent straight back to depot. Some lines were without trains for days because of this policy.
The travelling public were told why they would maybe have no trains, "because we want you to travel by Subway without the menace of graffiti". What was the reaction? Understanding! That's what the reaction was.
Whereas here "Mr & Mrs Amersham" or "Rickmansworth" would be tut-tutting that the 08.04 is 20 seconds late and want to travel in s**t heaps to be there "on time".

I suppose the security and most staff do not take this kind of offence very seriously. A thought came into my head today. Tho I think its disgusting having tube trains covered in graffiti I feel there is a positive which makes me feel a little at ease with the current climate and worldly affairs going on with terrorism! My thoughts are this: The underground employ security and make all types of measures to stop the problem of graffiti on the system, yet graffiti has never really stopped! It just goes on and on and has done so since the mid/late 80's on the London Underground. These sprayers/taggers or whatever they like to call themselves obviously have a passion for what they do regardless of what other people think or what the authorities do to try and stop them. They love it. They live it. The London Underground is shut for a certain amount of time each night and on christmas day. The depots and sidings are full of trains awaiting their return online the following day. These trains parked up at night are a perfect target for a terrorist to sneak in at night and plant a bomb or plan something horrific. With the constant presence of these graffiti sprayers at night this would act as a deterrant for any would be terrorist planning an attack. In other words they act as a side security for the London Underground. Yes they are causing damage and yes they are comitting an offence but at the same time without realising it they are protecting the London Underground from a potential terrorist attack on the network. From common sense if an attack happened at a depot or an attack happened because a device was planted at a depot or siding then I am sure graffiti would not be sprayed in that place for a long time to come or maybe ever again. Someone said in an earlier post the security guards are lazy and do not do their jobs. Well at least they have a side protection unit. I cannot believe any graffiti vandal to want to have anything to do with a terrorist and I am sure to protect their own interests they would report any unusual or suspicious behaviour from an outsider (terrorist). A terrorist is a planner and he cannot plan an attack when their are people constantly walking around/hiding in bushes/being around a perimetre. The security guards are there to stop graffiti am I right. They must have cameras and other protection measures in the sidings and depots (tho it does not stop the graffiti being done) along with the blatant fencing you can see all around the depots and sidings on the London Underground. This would be almost if not totally impossible for a terrorist to make an attack. This is just a thought. My mind is much more at rest. I do not like the look of graffiti and am a law abiding citizen, but I would much rather horrible looking trains than even one persons life be passed away or hurt in anyway. And if graffiti on trains is what it takes to even slightly protect the London Underground from a terrorist attack happening then so be it.

At the end of the day, to remove each and every train that had graffiti, and allow the depots to repair any defective stock would mean severe gaps in the service. Typically, as I've seen it before, on a service like the H&C you could be talking 30-40 minute gaps on the branch.

Which option would you think the customer would opt for now?

As for time constraints, this is under the same belt. If a train is removed for several hours / a day or two, then the train is not available to replace another service which may be suffering a defect, or replace another train where graffiti has been found.

At the end of the day, despite the best efforts of everyone to try and keep trains clean and in service, and despite whatever contracts have been agreed, I really cannot see why we, as the company, should be held accountable. We don't spray our own trains.

Sorry - I couldn't disagree more. The 'good' (best word I can find) terrorist is invisible - faceless - and as you say is a long-term planner. SO, if he is caucasian (as was Richard Read the shoe bomber) he can take years to plan. And in that time he can naturally and without suspicion infiltrate and become one of the 'graffiti' group until he is not even noticed. This is something that happens, not fantasy.

So, after an appropriate time he comes in with his explosive device along with his spraycans and gear, does the deed and nobody notices........

UNLESS the security staff are doing their jobs and stopping so much of the graffiti that the CCTV will pick up ALL of the remnant. Remember the bomber is not afraid of being identified at a later stage: by then he has probably used his suicide belt.

Personally I like the American approach - but firstly I am not currently a daily LU commuter, and secondly New Yorkers are a lot more laid back than the (usually) stressed London commuter. Wouldn't go down too well here. Nevertheless the point I am making is that the laxness is keeping graffitiists from trains is the very thing that gives the bomber his access. IMO a graffitied train is a sign of lack of security - and that makes me as a user uneasy........

Graffiti-free trains are safe trains


(As Jim Says)

When they get caught the courts give them a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again. They should be made to clean off the rubbish they put on the trains with a toothbrush.

Around these parts very few trains run with large graffiti on them. Granted a lot do run around with small bits but they are not really noticable and a good bit of it is cleaned up when it goes through the wash. A lot also run around with the removal job that looks absloutly shocking. If is running around "painted" it doesn't last long. A peak or 2 at most. Worst case it's pulled at where a replacement train is available.
We have an Asset Protection unit along with regular AOs and Transit police which does go out to yards, stations and on trains and does make arrests.

In Adelaide they put in the Belair Train compound a sprinkler system that was set of when someone breaks into the yard spraying the trains and the tresspasser.

The "works of art" that materialise do indeed pose questions over the security of trains in sidings. It is rare to have trains treated in such a way within the confines of a depot.

Other smaller pieces, such as tags, can quite often occur anywhere at anytime, particularly interior graffiti, and particularly on journies where there are likely to be few people in the same car (the rear car on some city-bound evening services for example.)

A few months back, a large number of A and C stocks were targeted with a continuous blackish/purple line down each side. This was carried out (it is believed) from a number of locations including platforms.

Apart from the sidings issues, I'm not quite sure how any company would be able to police all of the other areas to ensure nothing is vandalised. And as has been mentioned, would the immense expense it would take to police even half of those areas be compensated by a stiffer penalty when the persons responsible are caught.

As for terrorism, then I'm afraid the stark truth is the same. Hopefully if siding security is tightened, then one potential loop-hole would be closed. But as for the rest? No chance.

And let us not forget, our most recent terrorist attacks were in no way caused by a lack of this type of security.

Suffice to say the issue of trespassers walking into tunnel mouths on Christmas Day has been addressed and such activity is now detectable.

Obviously we don't want details of security measures, but the fact remains that a graffitied train has been, at some recent stage, a vulnerable train.......


And every member/reader should realize that NO security system can ever be 100% perfect.

After reading some of the posts I do not feel as safe as I did 24 hours ago. LOL! In the end of the day in all the years of the London Undergrounds existance from the days of the IRA to the days of Al-Qaeda(if they really even exist)/professional suicide bombers or even ameature suicide bombers, never has there been to the best of my knowledge a terrorist attack on the London Underground which was caused/created in a depot/sidings. So let us ride on. Enjoy our rides through the lines and worry about other things. If someone wants to cause an attack they do not actually need the London Underground to do it. There are like hundreds of possible/good targets for these kind of people. Now........ Graffiti. Back on topic I hope... :-). I have been researching some graffit sites recently some of the artwork I have seen on the London Underground is quite talented in my new opinion. I dont like the scribbling but really in my years of riding the lines I have seen only a handfull of really nice ones on the trains but did not realise so much artwork actually got done. I feel if I saw some of the work painted on these trains early one morning on my way to work I would really like it. it really does look amazing and is so much better than seeing a dirty red blue and white train go by. It gives you something to look at, leaves something to your imagination, pleasing to the eye. Wow!!! I swear I really never thought I would be talking like this one day. Why does the LU not just commision these people to do some of this work legally and save alot more money on cleaning and outright scribbling??? Strange... Or is like a war between the LU and the graffiti writers that they do not want to feel like they lost or something??? I dont know??? This really has opened up a can of I dont know now for me. Do not get me wrong. I do not agree with the illegal side of it but rather am just looking at the artistic side of it. It is much better than your average bill boards/posters of various companies trying to make money out of everyone. The craziest thing to me is these graffiti writers do not even get payed for it and they risk their life and freedom for it. Very bizzare indeed!

Hey Jim. Ease up. Im not actually a graffiti fan or anything. Tho I have rode the lines for a considerate amount of years I have never been into graffiti and do not agree with it or whatever. I started this thread up merely to bring along a conversation about the recent attacks on the LU and since reading other peoples posts I have made an effort (is this illegal or wrong) to look at some sites with regards to the matter. And actually they ARE called writers not only by themselves but by many other people from various interests and backgrounds. Yes they are vandals and I think tagging is ugly and disgusting but I was only pointing out the real artwork they do. The artwork where they obviously make an effort, use their talent and spend time on. No matter what anyone says it is an artform and alot of the work created by some of these people is very nice indeed. I was just pointing out some things and having an opinion. Am I not allowed to have an opinion? Is this forum not related to the LU which in turn has a major problem with graffiti? Yes! So therefore I am in the right forum. I think you should ease up! What maybe your opinion and feelings may not be the same for another. I am simply contributing to the forum. I started this thread and some people have had interest and contributed too. Lets not get into an argument just becasue I suddenly feel like SOME graffiti looks nice. Graffiti is an advert as such. And with legal adverts alot of people must feel it is unsightly and unwanted and evenmore so these poeple have them up to make money. Legal fly posting! Legal graffiti! Whatever you want to call it, that is what it is. People have just got used to it. The underground allow it because they make money from it. We could have a massive debate about this but please lets not. Lets just stay on topic.

Perhaps, and this would satisfy both tony and Jim, London should adopt the Bristol method. Going on from Banksy (now IS he a graffitiist or an artist? Your call....) the City council is now getting some of these artists to spray up various defaced walls around the city. First it was by invitation but now it is open house (subject to it not being on private house/company walls without permission). The result is a real brightening of some of the less salubrious areas of the city, but more importantly 1. The graffiti cleaning team can go back to the jobs they were originally employed for and 2. 'Tagging' has virtually disappeared because the ARTISTS keep them in check, knowing that if tagging comes back the whole project stops. Everybody wins (and if the locals don't like a new piece of art the council removes it).

Win-win-win.

Is there any proof that photography has had anything to do with terrerism/graffiti that we should have to suffer a ban?