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Post by 1938 on Sept 30, 2009 22:11:23 GMT
My main point was not about shells (altough improvements in aluminium welding are continuing) but the traction packages. Each line's stock has had improvements as technology improves. Some are better than others but if one design is less good the whole tube stock is not condemned for 30+ years. S stock is being properly tested, but if there are major problems in service the whole SS network will suffer, not just one line. Not Strictly true, if major problems with the S stock were to manifest in service the planned D stock replacement scheme would be suspended. |
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Post by plasmid on Oct 1, 2009 8:26:21 GMT
The external sliding doors are more unsafe on the 92ts than that of the 95/96ts. The main reason being is that the 92ts doors do not have a step plate at the bottom of the doors where as the 95/96ts does have a step plate. The step plate should stop the doors from being knocked off unlike the event of the Chancery Lane incident. However the sliding doors with the step plate can be considered more dangerous because this would allow 'teenagers' to ride on the doors on the outside of the train as we've seen numerous times on the Victoria line. Where as this isn't possible on the 92ts. Then again...now that they've turned down the door pressure on the 92ts, the door sensors can't seem to pick up a door that's slightly open! It happened again this morning, the door was open from Leyton to Stratford by at least an inch, it only closed when he stopped leaning on the door. And as for the comment about the District line running more frequently than the Central through Mile End, that is just plain rubbish, even more true during the off peak. Okay...you stand at Mile End as I've done every day for the last two years and play "count how many district line trains pass in the time 1 central line train passes". The signals are closer on the District Line to the station than on the Central Line allowing them to floor through quicker. The only time I would agree with what you said is when the Central Line does run every minute. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2009 12:06:19 GMT
To take the externally hung door thing from a different perspective, it allows the red part of the livery to be permanently visible  Presumably if the red door leafs "disappeared" into the white car body when opening, visually-impaired people would be suddenly deemed incapable of knowing how to get on? That was the joke, yes. Sorry if that wasn't made clear.  |
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Post by d7666 on Oct 1, 2009 14:49:05 GMT
This is a bit of a digression from the subject header, but no way is the District more frequent than Central here.
Observed over a statistically unrepresentative brief period maybe, over extended period no.
Reason - there are more timetabled C trains than D trains, and the D interval is up to twice as long that of C. Simple as that.
Here are the current service levels:
Current D TT 137 for Barking / Aldgate East is train every
2-4.5 eb am peak
2-4.5 wb am peak
2-5 both off peak
2.4.5 eb pm peak
2.4.5 wb pm peak
Current C TT 64 for White City / Loughton is train every
2-2.25 eb am peak
2 wb pm peak
2.5 both off peak
2 eb pm peak
2-2.25 wb pm peak
Service disruptions may digress from the timetable, but I would dispute that quote ''every day for the last 2 years'' that the Central has been running in such a disrupted degraded state that they continually run worse than the planned District interval.
To do what you are suggesting, EVERY DAY for 2 years on average the Central would be only ~50% planned service.
And that is just not true.
I think you are *very* confused about signals, signalling, and headways.
District line is traditional lineside red/green signals - and you can see such a signal at every block section.
Central is ATO - in *general* (+) you only have a red/green/white station starter signals, but there are many more ATO blocks between these that are not marked by a conventional signal but by a marker board that in most case are not really visible to anyone but train operators - but nonetheless are block sections that the train responds to.
If I were really keen I could dig out the line scale plans and count off each block , but as i don't have the time for all that, I'll leave it.
(+) there are of course exceptions, none of which apply at this location
--
Nick
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Post by superteacher on Oct 1, 2009 20:18:33 GMT
As for District trains flooring through the station, well the acceleration and braking on the Central line 1992 stock are both quicker than on the D stock, so if anything, it's the Central line trains that floor through the station.
Nick0323, I don't know what "Mile End" you've been standing at, but I've used it fairly regularly for the past 22 years, and the Central has ALWAYS been more frequent than the District, service disruptions excepted of course.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 18:05:35 GMT
For those who insist on sticking to this dogma, just imagine what would be happening if there were 92s on the Jubbly, the Northern, and lined up for replacement on the Picc etc. ......... Well, the 09ts do have a worrying similarity to the 92s. I really can't understand why they've revisted this unpopular design again, tbh. |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 4, 2009 19:56:17 GMT
For those who insist on sticking to this dogma, just imagine what would be happening if there were 92s on the Jubbly, the Northern, and lined up for replacement on the Picc etc. ......... Well, the 09ts do have a worrying similarity to the 92s. I really can't understand why they've revisted this unpopular design again, tbh. I don't think it's the design of the 92's that is unpopular, but just the quality of the construction. The 92 stock has easily the highest capacity of any tube stock, and the wide doors assist in getting more people on and off more quickly. I just hope the 09's have been built better!! |
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Post by metman on Oct 4, 2009 19:57:08 GMT
I dislike the 95/96 design. At least the 92 stock have nice big windows. With all the open air running on the Picc it would be nice.
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Post by Bighat on Oct 4, 2009 22:37:44 GMT
Well, the 09ts do have a worrying similarity to the 92s. I really can't understand why they've revisted this unpopular design again, tbh. I don't think it's the design of the 92's that is unpopular, but just the quality of the construction. The 92 stock has easily the highest capacity of any tube stock, and the wide doors assist in getting more people on and off more quickly. I just hope the 09's have been built better!! It amazes me at the quantity of colour-co-ordinated tape which seems to hold these trains together. It is not just randomly here and there, but in consistant throughout the entire train, and subsequent ones too. WTF went on when these were built? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2009 11:38:12 GMT
I don't think it's the design of the 92's that is unpopular, but just the quality of the construction. The 92 stock has easily the highest capacity of any tube stock, and the wide doors assist in getting more people on and off more quickly. I just hope the 09's have been built better!! I take your point - but it's also the horrible, hard, upright seats that are little more than L-shaped benches with a bit of padding. This is, sadly, one of the delightful features that have made it onto the 2009 stock. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2009 13:25:24 GMT
I don't think it's the design of the 92's that is unpopular, but just the quality of the construction. The 92 stock has easily the highest capacity of any tube stock, and the wide doors assist in getting more people on and off more quickly. I just hope the 09's have been built better!! I take your point - but it's also the horrible, hard, upright seats that are little more than L-shaped benches with a bit of padding. This is, sadly, one of the delightful features that have made it onto the 2009 stock. Also on the new LO trains. Must be a cost-cutting measure of sorts. |
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Post by underground2010 on Nov 30, 2009 18:08:54 GMT
Looking at these comments, they have amused me. The Central Line isn't half as bad as people say it is. I also notice that people always comment on the derailments and blame it on the trains. As far as I am aware, there have been two derailments because of train conditions, all other derailments have actually been caused by tunnel equipment. The 2007 rerailment at Mile End for example, that was caused by a fire sheet that was not secure and as a result of strong winds in the tunnel, blew the fire sheet onto the track and the train hit it, derailing the first two carriages I believe. I laughed at the comments about tape being used on the trains, I haven't seen any tape being used on the trains. Also, I believe people think the Central line is actually unreliable. The Central Line is actually one of the most reliable lines on the network, the District Line and Circle Lines are the most unreliable. The Central Line is a fairly decent line with decent stock if you ask me. 
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2009 20:50:36 GMT
1992 stock is rather grim when compared to pretty much everything else - even ancient Met and Bakerloo stock trains have much better ambience. I think the dirty dis-coloured seats and beige internal panelling are to blame. Plus the fact that the line goes to Stratford - probably the most depressing place in London.
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Post by superteacher on Nov 30, 2009 21:15:26 GMT
1992 stock is rather grim when compared to pretty much everything else - even ancient Met and Bakerloo stock trains have much better ambience. I think the dirty dis-coloured seats and beige internal panelling are to blame. Plus the fact that the line goes to Stratford - probably the most depressing place in London. There are far more depressing places in London then Stratford! |
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Post by astock5000 on Nov 30, 2009 22:11:44 GMT
I laughed at the comments about tape being used on the trains, I haven't seen any tape being used on the trains. Have a look at this photo: i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm67/astock5000/London%20Underground/IMG_0167.jpgAlso, I believe people think the Central line is actually unreliable. The Central Line is actually one of the most reliable lines on the network, the District Line and Circle Lines are the most unreliable. The Central Line is a fairly decent line with decent stock if you ask me. The Central line is more reliable than the sub-surface lines, because it has modern signalling and ATO. However, the 92TS are not as reliable as the D stock. I wouldn't describe the 92TS as 'decent stock'. The seats are too hard and worn out, the large windows can make them hot inside, and they are in bad condition and need to be refurbished (but I don't think 92TS is that bad that they need replacing - the W&C ones are ok). |
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Post by towerman on Dec 1, 2009 19:16:41 GMT
Have heard that when the Bakerloo gets it's new stock(2020?)there will be a follow on build to replace the 92TS,obviously the Bakerloos would be 7 cars and the Centrals 8 cars.
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Post by edwin on Dec 1, 2009 22:20:20 GMT
That means the Bakerloo will be 7 short cars, rather than 6 long like on the Piccadilly and Northern which have the same platform length... Why is this? Does the Bakerloo have similarly tight curves to the Central?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 22:24:07 GMT
Having 7-cars on the Bakerloo isn't as much of an issue as it is on the Picc or Northern. Having assymetrical units on the Bakerloo doesn't matter because there are no loops for trains to be turned. On the Picc you have Heathrow and the Kennington Loop.
Having said that it does save costs by having longer cars - though the possible articulation of the Bakerloo cars may mean that they have to be shorter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 22:41:38 GMT
Having said that it does save costs by having longer cars - though the possible articulation of the Bakerloo cars may mean that they have to be shorter. Shorter cars means less of a gap on tightly curved platforms which the Bakerloo has quite a few of. |
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Post by towerman on Dec 1, 2009 22:54:11 GMT
Longer car stocks like 73 & 83 won't fit in the tunnel section of the Bakerloo,esp south of Baker St.
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Post by astock5000 on Dec 1, 2009 23:03:37 GMT
Having 7-cars on the Bakerloo isn't as much of an issue as it is on the Picc or Northern. Having assymetrical units on the Bakerloo doesn't matter because there are no loops for trains to be turned. On the Picc you have Heathrow and the Kennington Loop. 7-car trains on lines with loops would not be a problem if you used double ended reversible units, there would be only two types of units - 3-car and 4-car, and you could couple them either way round. If you use 6-car trains made up of two single ended units (like 95TS), that still counts as two types when you are coupling units in a depot - units facing north and units facing south (or west/east), and you can only couple the inner ends together. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 1, 2009 23:19:08 GMT
7-car trains on lines with loops would not be a problem if you used double ended reversible units, there would be only two types of units - 3-car and 4-car, and you could couple them either way round. . 1972 stock was designed in just that way, because of the Kennington Loop. That's why the 4-car units are double-ended If you use 6-car trains made up of two single ended units (like 95TS), that still counts as two types when you are coupling units in a depot - units facing north and units facing south (or west/east), and you can only couple the inner ends together. Not only 95TS, but many others such as 1973 stock, which is "handed". That didn't matter when it was built, but the T4 loop means at any one time about half the units are back to front, so that not only do you have to find an east-facing unit and a west-facing unit to couple together, but you have to make sure that one is an A end unit and the other a D-end. This is true even if one of them is a double-ender. |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 2, 2009 1:06:31 GMT
Is there anywhere to turn a unit on the Picc other than the T4 loop?
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Dec 2, 2009 7:34:40 GMT
1938 Stock that was returned from the Northern after the 1969 maintenance workers' strike was turned via Earls Court, High Street Ken and Gloucester Road. There are photos at HSK and earls Court dated 26th July 1970 in UndergrounD issue 5 that I Edited. I seem to recall that on other occasions a trip round the Circle has been used.
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 2, 2009 10:38:36 GMT
1938 Stock that was returned from the Northern after the 1969 maintenance workers' strike was turned via Earls Court, High Street Ken and Gloucester Road. There are photos at HSK and earls Court dated 26th July 1970 in UndergrounD issue 5 that I Edited. .... Yup, I remember the day very well. I was the driver. It was a "buckshee Sunday". I recall an argument between the District guard and his driver who were piloting us over which signal was correct approaching High Street from Earls Court. I was given platform 3 when I should have had platform 2. I didn't know this but the driver was convinced it was OK and the guard wasn't. While they argued, I slowly drifted past the repeater and I decided to stop at the junction signal until they had sorted out their differences. As I stopped, the signal went back. I got out of the cab and rang the regulator (as they were called then). "Sorry Mate", he says, "I'll get a release and give you Platform 2." "OK" says I cheerily. The old DR driver was rather quiet by the time I got back in the cab. He was one of the "depot furniture" crews from Acton and hadn't been to High Street for years. His guard was new and knew the road well enough. My only disappointment of the day was that we were originally supposed to go Mansion House to reverse. That would have been a treat, crawling through all those District stations on a 38 with Mill Hill East via Bank on one end and Kennington on the other. That would have woken up some of the punters for sure. In the end, we were reversed at S Ken over the crossover. Little did I know that that I would be doing that regularly on late night Circles a few years later. |
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Post by Oracle on Dec 2, 2009 10:59:51 GMT
Our (TP's and myself's) late and much-lamented colleague Bob Greenaway took several photos at HSK.
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Post by plasmid on Dec 2, 2009 11:38:06 GMT
Soo...coming back on topic with regard to the 92ts.
We already know from the other topic that they intend on running 30tph as of next year and 33tph after a power upgrade in 2011. But does anyone know if these trains are going to receive a bit of TLC before the Olympics? After all excluding the Jubilee line, they are the only trains which pass through Stratford which look knackered.
At the very least they could wash the inside of the doors and fix the issue with the duct tape. I saw the damage refurbished unit the other month and it was so much more visually pleasing to look at.
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Post by 21146 on Dec 2, 2009 12:06:27 GMT
The GM told me they are to get new seat cushions. Unfortunately the business case for early fleet replacement wasn't accepted!
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Post by plasmid on Dec 2, 2009 12:20:39 GMT
I didn't think it would be accepted somehow!
New seat cusions are a start...not that I've ever seen a seat on a 92ts during peak, wash the doors please? Lol. Not a difficult job surely.
EDIT: Also new speakers, the DVA sounds tinny and crackly.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2009 17:11:21 GMT
The GM told me they are to get new seat cushions. Unfortunately the business case for early fleet replacement wasn't accepted! There is one unit currently in service (can't remember the unit number), with each car having a different style of seat. Apparently there are people on board the train asking passengers what they think, with a view of replacing the whole fleet. |
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