roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Mar 25, 2009 9:31:15 GMT
Having been fortunate enough to have worked on the DR/Met/Circle in the early 70's and from 74 at Kings Cross as a secondman, I feel qualified to comment here!
The class 31s used on the CWL were all from Finsbury Park depot; a certain number had trip cocks fitted for use on the CWL and also had to have steam heat. Only 57' stock could run on the CWL due to restricted clearances through York Road and Hotel Curve tunnels. Cravens DMUs were also trip cock fitted.
The LMR used short DMUs on their side, though by the time I worked that line, there were no loco-hauled LMR services. I believe class 24 at Cricklewood were tripcock fitted.
ER trains never called at Kings Cross CWL as IIRC, there may have been no passenger access to the road by then! I've actually stopped there a couple of times when the trip cock tester showed the trip inopertive on the loco, having been met at KX CWL signal box by a DI I used to know at Ricky!
Up trains from the north had to stop at York Way for the 2nd man to set the trip cock, a trip tester being fitted by the tunnel mouth which illuminated a warning in KX CWL box. There must have been a similar arrangement coming in from the Midland line.
At Moorgate, ER trains used platform 6, MR trains used platform 5. The loco would be uncoupled by an LT shunter, then follow the departing train to the starter, then when the dummy cleared, move to the loco spur just inside the tunnel. when the next train arrived, the lcoc would back out and be coupled by the LT shunter. the first train through would always be a light loco; similarly the last one out would be a light loco.
Yes, the tunnels from Kings Cross were very dark and creepy; on a 31 the noise was unbelievable, with the sharp curves making the flanges squeal too. There is a ventilator behind no 14 York Way where if you go up a few floors, you can still see down to the trackbed. I know as that used to be the home of a famous model shop and I worked there for a year or so in 1968.
The Snow Hill line was operated by LT, I'm not sure where the boundary was, but the signals were still illuminated long after the track was lifted as late as 1973! Before the connection closed, there used to be a class 08 shunter based on a spur just west of Farringdon w/b CWL
presumably to bank freight trains up Snow Hill.
The GWR had a number of coal and freight depots well into Southern teritory, inlcuding one at Clapham Junction reached by quite a steep gradient from the down Brighton line. you can still see the grade about 300 yards from Clapham junction. A housing estate now fills the site.
I can't remember the exact closure date for the Hotel Curve, but it was the same time they demolished the old KX main line signal box. the new power box did not have the CWL facility as there was no need for it. It was the some time before the GN electrics were introduced, 1978 maybe. The memory does fade a bit when it comes to dates!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2009 10:52:34 GMT
The GWR would not have used the ELL via reversal at Liverpool Street and of course via Shoreditch. It was all to and from ER and predecessors. However, I keep trying to recall whether the GWR served the south London coal depots.There was an article about an elevated coal depot in a railway magazine in the last few years. Somewhere online is the Railway Clearing House maps for London showing the various companies' tracks and depots. However, in the meantime I keep thinking that the only traffic onto the SR and predecessors via Snow Hill was from the Midland/LMR. The route I was querying was GWR-Paddington-Circle Line (N)-Aldgate E-St Mary's Curve-ELL-SECR/LBSCR. (Tries to remember what the steam engine was on the platform murals at Wapping (?)) The GWR had a goods depot at 'South Lambeth' (near Battersea Park - is on the RCH junction diagram (rjd-017) linked above (and in quote below)); it also had a share in Victoria Station - access was via the WLL (WLR & WLER - both part owned by the GW). The Widened Lines/Snow Hill route was intensively used by transfer freights from the GN (LNER, BR(E)), as well as the Midland, to the Southern - the GN in particular lacked other links. Unfortunately only some of the diagrams are posted on the web-site: the one particularly relevant for this thread is number 84, which isn't. The GWR had a number of coal and freight depots well into Southern teritory, inlcuding one at Clapham Junction reached by quite a steep gradient from the down Brighton line. you can still see the grade about 300 yards from Clapham junction. A housing estate now fills the site. I'm not sure that where I think you mean was actually a GW depot (AFAIK their only one in S London was South Lambeth) - but actually keeping track of whose depot was whose (especially now they're all gone) isn't easy. AFAIK it would have been late 1976, after inauguration of the GN electrics to Moorgate (deep level, ex GN&C) - this was a pre-requisite for the KX re-modelling (and electrification) in early 1977. |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Mar 25, 2009 11:33:59 GMT
In UndergrounD magazine issue 9 I published a photo of a NBL Class 21 on an Up service to Broad Street, just north of the site of Drayton Park station, and adjacent to the tube stock delivery ramp to/from the NCL. I wondered if they were used on CWL services? Class 23 Baby Deltics were, and quickly taken off because of excessive smoke. This is breaking the rules but it was touched on I see in the past: districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=met&action=print&thread=5586I had forgotten about the LMR Class 28 Co-Bos! Class 24s used on goods traffic from the LMR to the SR via Snow Hill were it seems fitted with tripcocks. Today, on the former CWL, for engineering work, only Classes 31, 33 and 73 are permitted. |
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 25, 2009 12:11:44 GMT
Unfortunately only some of the diagrams are posted on the web-site: the one particularly relevant for this thread is number 84, which isn't. Aha! Clickety Click for a scan of Diagram 84.  ;D I've been doing a bit of digging with reference to the CWL signalling in the 1960s (see comments passim), and I can immediately find: - Supp to TC 49/1956. Centralisation of Farringdon - Liverpool Street inclusive and the Widened Lines on the push-button panel in Farringdon.
- Supp to TC 23/1965. Alterations between Aldersgate and Moorgate. This covered the realignment and resignalling of the CWL between Aldersgate and Moorgate, with a temporary signalbox opening at Moorgate. (The Circle Line realignment was covered in 46/1965 in the November, after 23/65 coming out in the June.)
- Supp to TC 3/1966. At the end of January the temporary signalbox at Moorgate was closed and the CWL were put back onto the pushbutton panel at Farringdon. The seems to be very little difference between 3/66 and 23/65 apart from there being slots OE. 24 on the Aldersgate Up CWL Starter OG. 11 and OG. 3 slotting the down starters OE. 2 and OE. 3 at Moorgate.
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Mar 25, 2009 12:22:37 GMT
The GWR had a number of coal and freight depots well into Southern teritory, inlcuding one at Clapham Junction reached by quite a steep gradient from the down Brighton line. you can still see the grade about 300 yards from Clapham junction. A housing estate now fills the site. Roythebus is talking about New Wandsworth Goods Yard,though I didn't know it was GWR.It was accessed from the Down Brighton Slow somewhat South of Clapham Jct.As the line crosses Wandsworth Common,the observant will see a steep ramp running down to space for a headshunt to the East of the DBS to which it was connected. It was out of use by the late 60s and was used by a circus to overwinter,as well as the usual car yards etc when I was a kid. The whole site was cleared and redeveloped in the 80s with Barrat houses.Access for rail maintenance via the ramp and a gate on Battersea Rise is still possible. Incidentally,this was the site of New Wandsworth stations on the LB&SCR and L&SWR,whose tracks are very close at this point.These were closed when Clapham Jct was opened in ??1863.The Brighton station's goodsyard was what survived. The GWR had access to Victoria by Broad Gauge tracks along the WLL and then via the Low Level lines by way of Longhedge Jct and Stewart's Lane.I believe they used the LC&DR side at Victoria. Next to the WLL near Latchmere Jcts (on Cabul Rd) used to be the pub with the longest name in England:"The London,Chatham and Dover Railway Tavern",named after one of the WLL's co-owners.The building is still there,but no longer a pub. Am I wrong in saying that it is only the "Slim Jim" Class 33s that are allowed through the Snow Hill tunnels and CWLs?? |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Mar 25, 2009 12:33:47 GMT
All Class 33s are apparently permitted, and I think when RAIL was it had a photo and mention of an engineering train [at Farrindon] it was mentioned that 2 33s were hired in as no 73s were available.
I believe that 73s have been used on the TRT to Moorgate..I did mention about a Youtube video of a Moorgate-bound train in recent times but have no idea where the link is!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2009 12:52:55 GMT
The GWR had a number of coal and freight depots well into Southern teritory, inlcuding one at Clapham Junction reached by quite a steep gradient from the down Brighton line. you can still see the grade about 300 yards from Clapham junction. A housing estate now fills the site. Roythebus is talking about New Wandsworth Goods Yard,though I didn't know it was GWR.It was accessed from the Down Brighton Slow somewhat South of Clapham Jct.As the line crosses Wandsworth Common,the observant will see a steep ramp running down to space for a headshunt to the East of the DBS to which it was connected. It was out of use by the late 60s and was used by a circus to overwinter,as well as the usual car yards etc when I was a kid. The whole site was cleared and redeveloped in the 80s with Barrat houses.Access for rail maintenance via the ramp and a gate on Battersea Rise is still possible. AIUI this (New Wandsworth Goods) was always LBSCR (and successors), never GWR (property) |
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compsci
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Post by compsci on Mar 25, 2009 15:24:17 GMT
I've just opened a letter from Elaine of FCC regarding Thameslink changes. I imagine that it was meant to arrive in time to warn anyone who hadn't realised yet that Moorgate was closing, but I was away for the week.
She slags off Bombardier several times, blaming them for any and all stock shortages as a result of them not delivering the new batch of 377s on time. I'm sure that will go down just wonderfully with their PR department.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Mar 26, 2009 9:12:26 GMT
etr220 is right, New Wandsworth goods. I seem to remember reading somewhere this was a GWR depot, accessed from the broad gauge lines at Clapham Junction via the WLL. The book on the WLL does not show ownership of that depot on the 1865 OS map!
To answer Oracle, the Co-Bo Metrovicks would not fit the CWL as they are too long!
I don't know if Baby Deltics were ever used there, a bit before my time. Certainly the LM class 24s at Cricklewood would have been tripcock fitted for CWL use. From stories I've heard, the tripcock may been lowered and set by the secondman, but not cut in especially when working an unfitted freight. The problem being, if the train got tripped, the loco brake would go on full, and the 600 odd tons of unfitted train (i.e. with no brakes) would run into it, causing all sorts of problems, including injuring the guard.
At kings Cross, we had a couple of turns into Broad Street via Finsbury Park and the NLL. In my time there, these were DMU operated, usually using the Rolls Royce engined sets. I worked on them a couple of times. Broad Street then was like a station in the wild west, all desolate and creepy.
And yes, Hotel Curve etc would have been taken out of use in 1976 with the introduction of the electrics on the NCL from Finsbury Park. It was around then that the Broad Street services were withdrawn. Gosh, was it that long ago? Tempus fugit and all that.
The good thing about Kings Cross at that time was that it was the last bastion of loco-hauled suburban trains in the country, a real railway with real (nearly) engines, trains and real signals!!
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Oracle
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Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Mar 26, 2009 11:15:33 GMT
At kings Cross, we had a couple of turns into Broad Street via Finsbury Park and the NLL Was that via the Canonbury Curve? I assume that that connection has gone? I don't have a recent rail map. |
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Post by miztert on Mar 26, 2009 11:40:22 GMT
That would indeed have been via the Canonbury Curve - and what's more it still exists. At some point the line was singled to allow clearance for the installation of the overhead line, I guess this would have been during the 1976 works to electrify the Great Northern route (double track with overhead line is possible, but would require the floor of the tunnel being lowered).
It was in regular use until a couple or so years ago as units used on the West Anglia route of WAGN were maintained at Hornsey depot (a bit further north off the ECML), and so took the Canonbury Curve onto the North London Line, then the Graham Road curve from the NLL onto the West Anglia lines just north of Hackney Downs station so as to get to and from Liverpool Street station.
Not sure how much use it sees these days. If you come out of Drayton Park station and cross the road you can see the line in a cutting, along with the tunnel mouth (the tunnel that leads to the NLL).
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 26, 2009 12:22:04 GMT
the line was singled to allow clearance for the installation of the overhead line, I guess this would have been during the 1976 works to electrify the Great Northern route (double track with overhead line is possible, but would require the floor of the tunnel being lowered). No, it was electrified when the NLL a.c electrification happened in the mid-eighties. Incidentally, I was trying to work out how many separate ac networks exist on National Rail now. The ECML and WCML were connected when Edinburgh - Carstairs was electrified, and the GE lines joined them when the NLL ac lines were electrified. This left the Midland as the only isolated system, until the GWML was electrified for the HEx services. (Despite the MML and NLL crossing each other outside St Pancras and again at West Hampstead) But now HS1 has reached St Pancras. Does that have an ac connection to the GE lines at Stratford? If so, you could now transfer an ac-only unit from St Pancras to, say, Edinburgh, without having to drag it. (Although signalling on HS1 might be an issue!) The GWML a.c. system remains isolated, although it would be very easy to rectify that as the NLL passes over it in Acton |
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Post by miztert on Mar 26, 2009 14:06:37 GMT
the line was singled to allow clearance for the installation of the overhead line, I guess this would have been during the 1976 works to electrify the Great Northern route (double track with overhead line is possible, but would require the floor of the tunnel being lowered). No, it was electrified when the NLL a.c electrification happened in the mid-eighties. Thanks. Not much point electrifying the connection if there's no juice wires once a train reaches the NLL! There's no connection at Stratford whatsoever. There is however a connection at Ripple Road in Dagenham between HS1 and the London, Tilbury & Southend line (the c2c line) - the LTS line is in turn connected to the GE lines at Barking. I just had to check whether there was any connection between the GWML lines and the North Pole depot (the old Eurostar depot) - but there's no connection whatsoever, the North Pole depot only connects to the WLL. IIRC apart from the throat of North Pole depot which had dual electrification (i.e. AC overhead and DC third rail), the rest of the depot used overhead lines. |
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Oracle
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Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Mar 26, 2009 15:19:55 GMT
I think that there's no electrified connection between the Dudding Hill line I think it is via Acton Canal Wharf Junction to the HEx at Acton Yard. That is, from Willesden Junction and the WCML to the GWR ML
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Post by miztert on Mar 26, 2009 16:16:38 GMT
I think that there's no electrified connection between the Dudding Hill line I think it is via Acton Canal Wharf Junction to the HEx at Acton Yard. That is, from Willesden Junction and the WCML to the GWR ML No, the link from the GWML (just east of Acton Main line station and Acton Yard) to the NLL (at Acton Wells Junction) is not electrified - nor is the route from the WCML to the NLL via Acton Canal Wharf Junction electrified either (though it is possible to reverse east of Willesden Jn high-level and then travel west to get to the WCML). |
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Apr 10, 2009 2:57:56 GMT
K The entrance building to King's Cross(York Rd.) Platform is still there...it's on York Way,at the back of the main station,at the top of the cab ramp (which I think is closed during the current refurb). Goimg up York Way in the last week or so,I noticed that the remaining "upstairs" building at York Rd,has been demolished and is now a heap of bricks surrounded by a hoarding. Des anyone know if ther are any plans for the old tunnels here? Presumably cable runs etc? |
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Post by 21146 on May 7, 2009 20:50:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2009 21:03:12 GMT
Hmm, very interesting pictures. I recall when they ripped apart Bank [Northern Line] similar adverts were found. I think they dated from the late 50's or early 60's, if considering the fashions displayed on the posters. The timetable poster is interesting, Intercity just shouts 'Age of the Train' at me! ;D
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