Farewell Moorgate.....

How far did the train actually go? Did it go all the way to Bedford?

I've never known the reason for that platform being taken out of use, was it deemed too narrow or something?

Don't you mean Eastbound?
Or, as we're talking NR, the up direction?

It couldn't be because of that, as it is as wide as platform 1.

King's Cross St Pancras CWL station looked bleak and grim in those days, although I have no idea what York Road looked like from the platform. How did you get out at YR? The counterpart I suppose was one of the suburban platforms in the station, the one with the line coming up from the curve?

I seem to recall that the Down platform up from Hotel Curve [?] was in the suburban station to the right looking at the station.
I was only there twice in the 60s when Deltics, 47s, 31s and 46s were main motive power.

STOP PRESS: just found this:

www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/k/kings_cross_york_road/index.shtml

The down platform at Barbican went out of use around 1994, because it could only accommodate 4-car units, not 8-car (no SDO on Class 317 or 319) and virtually all 4-car diagrams had been increased to 8-car in the 12 years since the electric services started.

Which reminds me that the Widened Lines were London Transport (ex Metropolitan Railway) until the Midland suburban electrification project of the late 1970's/early 1980's (and so had LT signals, etc.)



I think I would regard King's Cross Thameslink (ex Midland City) as a rebuild of the old King's Cross Met station, rather than a new one, only temporarily closed during the reconstruction period (in addition to its wartime closure). The current LU King's Cross Metropolitan, etc. Line platforms were opened in 1940 (as essentially part of the tube station), when LT Met line trains ceased to serve the old KX Met station - on its post war reopening it only served what became BR trains (although AIUI still an LT station).

So yes, the Widened Line platforms at KX (which became KX Thameslink) were open together with York Road, and the relevant platform (at the end of Hotel Curve round from the Widened lines) on the suburban side of KX (main line), until the links from the GN were removed as part of the GN suburban electrification, etc project of the mid-1970s - whether GN-Moorgate trains served both KX Met and KX main line/York Road I couldn't say (although I've always thought that at least some did, at least some of the time), while KX Met was also served by Midland line Moorgate trains.

I have WTTs for the CWL that would verify this, but only if they covered that area, as such LT/LPTB issued Widened Lines WTTs (at least from 1949) did not cover stopping places away from the KX - Farringdon - Aldersgate - Smithfield Depot - Moorgate section. However, City Widened WTTs always shewed the ultimate destination and the operating company or region.

Going slightly further back to Met. WTT 188 of 1915, the galley was King's Cross - Farringdon Street - Aldersgate - Smithfield Depôt - Whitecross Street - Moorgate Street; so not much has changed in the intervening period. Midland (passenger) Trains to Moorgate, Victoria, Herne Hill and Loughborough Road, GN passenger trains to Moorgate and Ludgate/Victoria. The oldest CWL WTT I've ever seen was from 1888 and I'm pretty sure the galley was more or less the same.

Unfortunately I haven't got any LNE or GN WTTs that might help, but that is only because I don't collect them; and I can't think of anyone OTTOMH who would - however I do have various sets of pre- Great War to the 1950s signalling regulations for the City Widened Lines and I'll have a peer in them to see if there were any routing codes.

I do have a map somewhere (about work in the Chalton St. area during the early 40s) that shows the lines to/from York Road and the junction is at (Met.) Kings Cross 'C' - roughly where OJ.14^CROJ.14^D/E19^B is these days - I'll have a look and a ponder; but FWIW I think calling at both KX Met and York Road would have stopped in 1940.

I'll also have a peer in the 1947 and 1942 LNE Sectional Appendices, just to see if anything is mentioned there.

Sorry to be not much help and rambling on side issues.

EDIT: Having looked at the Aldersgate file copy of the 1914 Regulations (as in the master copy updated by the Traffic Superindendents office) this is what might be classed as a 'two pipe problem' - it will involve quite a lot of background digging to provide the basis for what went on in the latter years of CWL trains; not only are there routing bellcodes for the Spagnoletti lock-and-block instruments, there is a later addition for a train description apparatus and some sections which quite amazingly for 1914 (remembering that track circuits are only 11 years old at this point) signalled by description only. I shall have to put this in the pile of 'things to look at'. Exceptionally interesting - what might also be of interest is the diagram for King's Cross 'C' on John Hinson's superb site: clickety click. I shall put my thinking cap on when I have a chance. ;D

I believe the platforms were extended slightly when it was rebuilt as Kings Cross Midland City, but the Hotel Curve and York Road Curve tunnels were not obstructed.

When it was KX Thameslink you could peer into the darkness at the west end of the platform and see the tunnel from York Road joining about a carriage length into the tunnel - the Hotel Curve was further west than that.

Excuse my ignorance here but does that mean that the Farringdon trains came off the SR by way of Snow Hill tunnel? Or did they reverse in Smithfield sidings?

Having seen recently-taken photos of the single-bore tunnel from York Road, it must have been scary for the crews...it reminds me of a brick-built tube tunnel. No fun with a N7 say, despite condensing gear. And those gradients must have been a job for the drivers...including diesel locos. Which reminds, I assume that the 31s had tripcocks? Were they based at Hornsey Depot as against Stratford?

I remember reading that crews on steam engines in the Hotel Curve could have difficulty telling that they were moving forwards, such was the curvature, gradient of the track and the noise and smokiness in the tunnel - a train could actually be slipping back and without lights it was not easy to tell you were going slowly backwards rather than forwards!

Yes - Smithfield (goods) depot was GWR (-> BR(W)) - served by trains via Paddington (there was a batch of GWR 57xx with condensing equipment for the purpose). AIUI, the depot (and trains) went in the early 1960s.

Through passenger trains off the GW onto the Met were worked by Met electric locos east of Paddington from c1908 until the service was withdrawn for the duration permanently in 1939 (IIRC)


Trains from the SR came via Snow Hill tunnel direct to Farringdon en route to the north (the line was reinstated for Thameslink) - the South to East curve went following the withdrawal of SECR (ex LCDR) trains to Moorgate in 1916 (as there was a legal dispute between the Southern and Metropolitan Railways in 1923 over their non-reinstatement, it would be interesting to know exactly when)


N7s were (mainly) on the GE - the GN section had N1 & N2 classes. The 31s (or better to say Brush Type 2 - they originally became class 30) and other diesels used on the GN suburban would have been based at Hornsey - later I imagine at Finsbury Park; and I imagine only those allocated there would have had the tripcocks doubtless necessary for the Widened Lines.

Looking at the Midland service to Moorgate, in 1953 there were two up trains (KX 9 6 and 940); and while in 1938 there were a few more trains, there was nothing earlier off the main line (there were some earlier from Barking) - the Midland didn't provide much in the way of a suburban service, certainly on its main line (or should I say London Branch) (until c1960 the slow lines were goods only).

A couple of questions: were there ever through (freight or other) trains from the GWR to the SR (SECR or LBSC) via Farringdon and either Snow Hill Tunnel (would this have been possible?) or the ELL?

AIUI the eastbound widened line was electrified in the 1920s, and used by Met trains to Moorgate: is this correct, and when did it cease to be so used?

The GWR would not have used the ELL via reversal at Liverpool Street and of course via Shoreditch. It was all to and from ER and predecessors. However, I keep trying to recall whether the GWR served the south London coal depots.There was an article about an elevated coal depot in a railway magazine in the last few years. Somewhere online is the Railway Clearing House maps for London showing the various companies' tracks and depots. However, in the meantime I keep thinking that the only traffic onto the SR and predecessors via Snow Hill was from the Midland/LMR.