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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2009 20:44:39 GMT
Hi all,
Had a trip on the District today and it dawned on me what these trains have had all this money spent on them but will be replaced fairly soon. Can I ask when the District is due to get its new stock?
These trains look like they could manager at least another 10- 15 years service.
Dan
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 17, 2009 20:46:49 GMT
The D stock will be replaced by S stock around 2015.
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Post by edb on Feb 17, 2009 20:47:43 GMT
Actually i think they'll probably be there for 10 years...
The A60 is going to reach it's half century, they haven't even started testing the S Stock..... (please correct me if i am wrong)
So i think the D's will probably get to 10 years.....
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 17, 2009 20:52:02 GMT
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Post by citysig on Feb 19, 2009 13:28:50 GMT
Actually i think they'll probably be there for 10 years... And the rest. The current financial situation has probably added another 10 years to the C-stock, let alone the Ds. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 19, 2009 15:06:06 GMT
So whats a more realistic time scale for the phase in of the S stock, and are we really talking in terms of decades? If so, then surely the H&Circle will be in need of replacement stock first.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2009 17:51:34 GMT
the d stock are in good shape anyway and dont seem old at all, they could probably manage 10 years easy
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Post by citysig on Feb 19, 2009 19:30:44 GMT
So whats a more realistic time scale for the phase in of the S stock, and are we really talking in terms of decades? If so, then surely the H&Circle will be in need of replacement stock first. The last I heard was the S-stock will begin to be introduced more or less as planned within in the next 1-2 years. This introduction will see the replacement of the A-stock. Following this... well, at the minute there are no firm plans following this. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 20, 2009 1:07:22 GMT
the d stock are in good shape anyway They might just scrape by at the moment, and might well still hold the crown as LU's most reliable stock (can't say I know too much on the current stats) - but if the fitters keep responding to logged defects with that bloomin' word "reported", rather than actually fixing the problem, I wouldn't like to say what they'll be like in a years time let alone 10! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 11:26:53 GMT
They might just scrape by at the moment, and might well still hold the crown as LU's most reliable stock (can't say I know too much on the current stats) - but if the fitters keep responding to logged defects with that bloomin' word "reported", rather than actually fixing the problem, I wouldn't like to say what they'll be like in a years time let alone 10! The number of trains running about with motor defects (car's with non-functioning motors, motors that "drop out" of functioning intermittantly and won't reset except randomly of their own accord, and motors that trip at every rail gap) is becoming absurd. It seems we have only a 50/50 chance of getting a train with all motors in lately (and that was before the snow wiped out several more). Of course the depots get away with this, because it is difficult (for the Train Operator) to check the motors are "all in" before leaving the depot, and once the train has been accepted on the road it can not, then, (officially) be rejected for one car of motors out. The Controller may offer to get a fitter to confirm the defect, but several times I've had to say, "the defect has been confirmed several times already, it just hasn't been repaired !" |
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Post by johnb on Feb 20, 2009 15:34:23 GMT
The current financial situation has probably added another 10 years to the C-stock, let alone the Ds. I'd be *very* surprised if the full S-stock order doesn't come through, with at worst a couple of years' stretching. Apart from anything else, there's no way in hell the government could take the work away from Derby in the current economic climate. ...and by 2017 the D78s will be 39, which is pretty damn old in train years, if not in A-stock years  |
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Post by citysig on Feb 20, 2009 19:36:19 GMT
Your faith in this government securing the future of anyone, in particular people who build trains, is commendable if a little mislead ;D The A-stock will be 50+ years old when it is retired. The majority of C-stock hits 40 this year. When you think that - even if delivered on time - the C-stocks will be hitting mid-40s, then 2023 is not a too optimistic figure for the D-stock to be replaced. My money is on it not even being S-stock that replaces the Ds. We'll return to this thread then (going on current trends someone new will no doubt bump it nearer the time ) |
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 20, 2009 20:00:01 GMT
This is powerful stuff. The mighty D stock, starting to fail? There are 12 motors per train right? I expect the S stock to replace all three stocks myself, but if the current economic climate continues, all S stock could be delayed because of material shortages. We will have to see what transpires. From a personal point of view, the longer we can keep the A, C and D stocks the better. They are all great at what they do, provided they work.
Perhaps attention to the 1992 stock is needed more?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 20, 2009 21:29:43 GMT
This is powerful stuff. The mighty D stock, starting to fail? There are 12 motors per train right? Well, in terms of axles, 16 are motored out of 24. Today my first train had repeating breakers (motors constantly cutting in & out) - already noted many times on the defect card - and the second train had motors that dropped out every time it went over a rail gap - again it was already on the defect card and had been confirmed twice by the mobile fitters!  We had 29 flashed over motors on the Monday it snowed, let alone all these other niggly defects. I suppose to be fair the depots are probably struggling to keep up, but if that is the case, it's not being filtered through to the drivers and that's leaving us with the impression no ones bothered. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 20, 2009 22:45:10 GMT
Of course the depots get away with this, because it is difficult (for the Train Operator) to check the motors are "all in" before leaving the depot, and once the train has been accepted on the road it can not, then, (officially) be rejected for one car of motors out. Why not? Do I understand "accepted" as meaning having left the depot - surely it can be reversed, sent back, and changed over for a working train with (relative) ease? |
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Post by setttt on Feb 20, 2009 23:31:35 GMT
Of course the depots get away with this, because it is difficult (for the Train Operator) to check the motors are "all in" before leaving the depot, and once the train has been accepted on the road it can not, then, (officially) be rejected for one car of motors out. Why not? Do I understand "accepted" as meaning having left the depot - surely it can be reversed, sent back, and changed over for a working train with (relative) ease? The Defective in Service Instructions state that a train with one car of motors out can remain in service, so the likelihood of a changeover being arranged is slim to none. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2009 1:23:19 GMT
The Defective in Service Instructions state that a train with one car of motors out can remain in service, so the likelihood of a changeover being arranged is slim to none. Indeed, whereas a train should only be offered for service in full working order. Hence once accepted into service it can only, usually, be rejected/cancelled/changed over if the instructions for trains defective in service say so. |
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Post by mrfs42 on Feb 21, 2009 1:49:41 GMT
Sounds like a bit of a 'fudge' but at least it keeps the trains running. Which at the end of the day it what it's all about.
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Post by upfast on Feb 21, 2009 4:20:37 GMT
Sounds like a bit of a 'fudge' but at least it keeps the trains running. Which at the end of the day it what it's all about. I thought it was all about contracts, meself |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2009 14:13:41 GMT
Sounds like a bit of a 'fudge' but at least it keeps the trains running. Which at the end of the day it what it's all about. Trains with motors out have a notably increased chance of getting gapped and destroying the service completely. The increased strain placed upon other motors can also cause problems with them. officially one car of motors out has no discernable effect, but especially at busy times it isn't possible to maintain running times despite the official position so that train will delay those behind it and create ueven service intervals and delays albeit minor) .... of course TfL metronet don't then get the blame ! |
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 22, 2009 15:29:29 GMT
The Defective in Service Instructions state that a train with one car of motors out can remain in service, so the likelihood of a changeover being arranged is slim to none. Indeed, whereas a train should only be offered for service in full working order. Hence once accepted into service it can only, usually, be rejected/cancelled/changed over if the instructions for trains defective in service say so. But what's the difference between a train with a faulty motor in the depot, and a train with a faulty motor on the track outside the depot? OK perhaps technically its entered service, but it hasn't been sent out in 'full working order'... |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 22, 2009 15:52:32 GMT
The difference is you can't tell if a motor is defective until you get it out on the line.
Metronet are supposed to offer the trains for service defect free, so in theory trains can only develop defects once they are out on the line and in passenger service.
Because defects, in theory, only occur when the train is in passenger service, we are then bound by the document "defective in service instructions" which details what action to take; more often not it'll be a "changeover when convenient" which might as well be re-worded to say 'run it till close of traffic'.
Metronet then offer the same train, with the same defect, for service the next day.........and so the cycle repeats......
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 22, 2009 16:27:19 GMT
So once the train is outwith the confines of the depot, it's SEP? Good old contractors...!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 22, 2009 17:02:51 GMT
Diagnostic 'black boxes' would help this surely? Will the S stock have such a thing?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 22, 2009 18:50:41 GMT
Except we're not, Metronet having been returned to TfL (and latterly LU) control last year.  |
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Post by citysig on Feb 22, 2009 19:26:01 GMT
Because defects, in theory, only occur when the train is in passenger service, we are then bound by the document "defective in service instructions" which details what action to take; more often not it'll be a "changeover when convenient" which might as well be re-worded to say 'run it till close of traffic'. Metronet then offer the same train, with the same defect, for service the next day.........and so the cycle repeats...... In one of those "I can only speak for the Met" scenarios... Even when the DISI book states "changeover when possible" then a train is "put on the list" to be dealt with at the earliest convenience. That "recommendation" in the DISI book also usually gets backed up with a Train Technician's opinion, and when it is possible to allow a bit more time for the train to continue, it merely gives us more of a window to get a convenient changeover arranged. Apart from very minor defects, on the Met we generally manage to change trains over within an hour or two of the fault being confirmed. When it comes to "contractors" (or not as they are now) whatever "penalties" were or were not handed out in the past, you have to apply common sense. If your car had a fault, would you mindlessly keep it going until it really conked out and then wasn't available for weeks. No. The same is true with trains. Although we don't repair them as controllers, we keep in mind that whilst a train has a fault, it could be getting worse, and could mean a shortage of stock the next day, and all because of a small delay to customers. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2009 20:07:07 GMT
Diagnostic 'black boxes' would help this surely? Will the S stock have such a thing? All stocks from the 92s onwards have so far had this so it's pretty certain the S stock will as well. |
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Post by happybunny on Feb 22, 2009 22:01:08 GMT
I thought the D stock got them at refurb ?
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Post by singaporesam on Feb 22, 2009 23:28:35 GMT
I don know why , but I´ve a funny feeling that the root cause of this is a case of amnesia on the part of those maintaining the D stock , probably caused by repeated changes in management. I suspect that someone has considered it to be a good idea to send complete traction cases to REW for overhaul again .......
13 years ago When we did RCM reviews we recommended not doing this as it was quite apparent that a number of the failures that occured were as a result of maintenance action rather than inaction. In particular things like dropping out over gaps and repeating LBs can be caused by problems with Volt Amp relay settings which are pretty much left alone until they are overhauled. Yes, somethings need to be overhauled, but its better to remove them piecemeal than send the whole case away. We once had a train that was reported for motor dropping out intermittently, it was only being reported occasionally, something like 8 times in 18 months , but eventually we stopped the train , checked the equipment case wiring wire by wire and found that a load weigh relay had two wires swapped .
The snow thing is nothing new ..... same thing happened in 1991
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 23, 2009 1:54:47 GMT
I thought the D stock got them at refurb ? Nope - the only device that records anything on D stocks is the runback protection system, though I've heard so many different versions of what it supposedly records that I suspect it's about as useful as a chocolate tea pot. Oh yeah, and we have in car CCTV of course. That's about it though. In one of those "I can only speak for the Met" scenarios... I fully accept what you say MetControl, and I've seen the same thing occur on another line whilst observing the controller - but experience of the way in which confirmed defects appear to be dealt with on the District is very much different. Over the past two weeks or so, I've had at least five if not six trains where I've had the mobile fitter out and they've confirmed a motor defect (at least two of them were already on the defect card!!); on each occasion the fitter has stated they will inform the controller of the need for a changeover. I've since had four of those trains again and the defect is still present with the reply to my report on the defect card being "Reported". I've also had probably the same number of trains where I've picked up and the previous driver has had a defect confirmed - each time I've been told that a changeover is on the cards, and each time I've completed a full rounder (3 hours or so) and handed the train over to another driver. I'm actually wondering if the reason behind the lack of changeovers on the District has a connection with lack of spare trains available in the depots - during the peak, Upminster only has one train spare (assuming all trains are out as booked) meaning the rest are at Ealing Common, which only see's a third of the service at the west end of the line. Given that there are 67 D stocks in service in the peaks and the total fleet is 75, are we just too tight with only 8 spares? |
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