mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 29, 2010 6:43:08 GMT
You've got me to-day; and I've got the honour of awarding the points to slugabed. Don't know about any answers by PM. Answer: Penge West - view south along southbound platform
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 28, 2010 19:58:19 GMT
If you take a closer look at a Victoria Line platform's track, you will see a set of insulated block joints at one-third platform length, Third of the way in... ISTR that's the 82 second block joint with a co-terminous 22/25mph overlap.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 28, 2010 13:57:32 GMT
(quoting me) there's then the 'time separation' of I think two clear minutes in front and four clear minutes behind the two types of rolling stock - there is some minimum standard Could someone please explain why there is this "time separation" between the two rolling stocks, could it be something to do if one breaks down and needs a pushout? Only identical stocks can push each other out. Looking at many Bakerloo WTTs over the years - there were occasions when the time separation was only three minutes - here as a rather extreme example: This is Bakerloo WTT 6 (May 1986), and has the odd occurence of the LMR service being recast without the Bakerloo service being reworked. It was amended by TCs 17/86; 36/86; 41/86, 38/87 then TTNs 98/86; 100/86 plus TC 17/87 revised the LMR service and then TC 37/87 revised the LMR service again! I'll have a quick look through the Bakerloo WTTs, and tell you when the four minutes clear behind differing stocks came in (if I can find it on the shelves). You can also get peculiar things happening with OvergrounD trains being given stand time at Queens Park northbound, this example being from 2007: Look at the 1837 NB from Euston - it is the only non-bold, non-italicised train in the picture. Some things are arcane and beyond the whit of man. ;D
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 27, 2010 12:07:24 GMT
And for a short time earlier in the week, I did witness a very brief "Part Suspended" for the Waterloo & City line ;D Excellent!! ;D
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 27, 2010 3:24:06 GMT
What you need is something like "Good service to all (Metropolitan Line) destinations except Chesham". A shade long - why not just 'No Chesham' (it also helps that the letters have a distinctive shape - I just look at the pattern on the service update things)?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 26, 2010 20:19:35 GMT
God rest the numbers 8 and 9. May they still be resting in peace. ;D ;D Absolutely!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 26, 2010 20:03:56 GMT
Oh goody the change happened between October 1965 and October 1968 which is coincident with another gap in my Met. library. Time to delve into the District & Piccadilly series. In 1968 H&C were 181 - 199; OR 201 - 207; IR 211 - 217. Part of me thinks that the change was related to the introduction of PMs onto the District side of the Circle, but I know that was expressly enumerated in one of the two District WTTs issued during 1970. Time to look at the green shelf. Right then, the Met. numbers changed with the introduction of D&P WTT 92 (16/10/67) - the one with the printed cover note about booked Tower Hill reversers must do it at Mansion House [do you remember that one, gents?]. That means..... the numbers must have changed with the introduction of Met. No 1 WTT 222 (also on 16/10/67); so my answer is <drum roll and fanfare> May/October 1943 to October 1967. I think I shall have a wee swally to celebrate that bit of sleuthing.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 26, 2010 11:19:49 GMT
returns from ringing at a remote church in the Kent countryside.... You mean like this? Yes, I do. Stedman, Grandsire, Plain Bob, Kennington and April Day - if that means anything... <back to the WTTs> Right District & Piccadilly 37 (4/10/43) has Inner Rail Circles M171 - M177. So that's halved the gap. Time for a bit more digging.... Hmm. Looking at the notes it would appear that Met No1 99/3.5.43 had a recast of the Circle service to 7½ minutes but one of the greater mysteries of the Met WTT world rears it head - the missing WTTs 91 and 93; so we can't actually pin an exact date for when the ELL flew the Met nest and went back into its own WTT (again, probably); there was also a reissue of the Met WTT (101/4.10.43) on the same date as the District and Piccadilly. I can't find any record of the ELL having its own WTT until 1951! [1] (133 - of which I do have a copy to hand) - the numbers there are 10x, matching up with WTT 103a from May 1944. Odd that. <note to self - is there really no ELL WTT from 1944 until 1951..... Were not the 'GE Goods [GEG/GWG] paths changed after the first nationalised summer??> I digress - it would appear that the 17x numbers started for Inner Rail at some point between May or October 1943. I think by comparison the ending of the numbering should be a piece of cake... [1] well - a number all of its own - there's 103a of course.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 26, 2010 10:57:12 GMT
returns from ringing at a remote church in the Kent countryside......
*digs out landscape Met WTTs*
Earliest I can find is May '44 (103) which has OR 161-7, IR 171 - 7 no ELL 82 - 98 Hot&Cold.
However the first landscape (Nov. '42/95) has OR 65 -71, IR 72 -78 with 79 as a Depot to WPS changeover, plus ELL 107 - 111.
So; at a guess it would start when the ELL (which were 1xx) left the main body of the Met No 1 galley [1]; which would be sometime between 11/42 and 5/44. I shall have a look in my District WTTs (as they cover the gap in the Mets).
[1]possibly for the second time - I can't recall. The ELL has danced the hokey-cokey with the main Met WTTs.
*rummage*
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 26, 2010 7:56:32 GMT
, and we will just revert back to the old signals (not that old actually, they only date from 1999) Only in those positions - the 'old' signals are much older than that, being s/hand off the Central Line.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 26, 2010 0:36:38 GMT
171? Ex-East London Line! Second-hand from the Northern City, old bean!
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 25, 2010 12:53:30 GMT
The number of times I've sat for several minutes - on a SB Bakerloo - in Queens Park shed, because not only is there a train already in the platform as we arrive at that point, but the signalman allows the empty train beside us to go ahead and enter the platform first. Yes - but that's regulation, and I suspect has more to do with getting the trains to Elephant in the right order for ∇ (stepping back) and as such that would only have a vestigial effect on the Overground service. EDIT: I also think (and this is a considered opinion, rather than a random guess) that the Bakerloo trains are quite generously timed south of Stonebridge Park - it's not quite as obvious as a pathing allowance IYSWIM. Very curious.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 25, 2010 12:30:58 GMT
I have just read info on the ORR site about the post 2012 WCML prototype timetable. It says that 4tph on the DC lines will be included, with a recast of the Bakerloo line timetable. I was wondering how the Bakerloo would be recast? The easy answer - which might well have no basis in reality would be to tinker with the stand time at Harrow & W and Queens Park - there's then the 'time separation' of I think two clear minutes in front and four clear minutes behind the two types of rolling stock - there is some minimum standard, and you see trains held to maintain that standard separation - even to the extent of having the occasional odd stand times at Willesden Junction/Stonebridge Park.
It isn't exclusively to do with maintaining even gaps between trains, because the Bakerloo service density is quite variable, and this minimum separation is rigidly maintained (at least paper).
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 25, 2010 0:52:07 GMT
After 50 years I think it is clear that the A stock has been very successful and ultimately will probably (although not actually a Met Rly design) go down as the last in the line of the true Met trains. I would hope so - much as I have a bit of an antipathy to the MET, the passing of the design into history should be commemorated. There's a curious observation made about the Amersham stock by (I think) one of the previous Lucasian Chairs...... Certainly one of the SCR lot. EDIT: I'll have to look through the notes I've got on the 25 Castello Close crowd.. Hmm.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 24, 2010 13:13:33 GMT
That would be brilliant, thanks for the really quick reply! PM me your email address and I'll send photographs of it across.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 24, 2010 12:55:11 GMT
I might have something, but it'll take some time to dig out that bit of the information - as the Bakerloo bits are having a bit of a sort out.
EDIT: I've found a Bakerloo TTN with the DC service closed below Queens Park (ie. no Euston - Queens Park Overground service) - is that good enough? Has the complete Sunday service.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 23, 2010 21:03:53 GMT
I fear that I've been shanghaied into calling the harvest home that day, otherwise I would be there to buy a proper penny/mile ticket.
Can I book one via the internet, you sell it and date it: send it for a ride and pop it in the post? Donation to the 'Rheneas' fund?
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 23, 2010 16:25:09 GMT
But that use of 'Parliamentary' to describe the trains in the 1844 act is as much shorthand as using the term to describe modern trains run purely to 'get around' the rules on closure of lines to passengers. Quite. It is no more 'wrong' now than it was 'right' then. The original, and subsequent, acts referred to such services as 'Cheap Trains'. 'Parliamentary' was a slang term to mean they were run to fulfill the requirements of parliament. Such a label has no legal definition or weight. Such a label is just as appropriate now, despite it resulting from a different obligation. There is no merit or benefit in making the term which has otherwise been long obsolete specific to a single context. Fair enough - perhaps I'm in a minority here (and I'll cheerfully admit it); but on another day it might be worthwhile visiting the Travelling Tax Abolitionists and the Cheap Trains Act of 1883. I've seen too many tickets printed with 'Parliamentary' to consider it a slang term: The idiot who, in railway carriages Scribbles on window-panes We only suffer To ride on a buffer On a Parliamentary train. ;D ;D Of course, a ticket is a legal contract!
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 23, 2010 13:23:09 GMT
Interesting - I've got a document dated 29th September 193 8, where the tube stations were intended to be used as air raid shelters from the very beginning. I really must get on with writing the air raid precautions for zeppelins article.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 23, 2010 10:30:43 GMT
Do you have a copy of the act itself? Does it say that such tickets must be marked Parliamentary or was this just the railways making them easy to understand by borrowing the word and such tickets could have equally have been marked 'workman (1844 act)' or something similar. I do have a copy of the Act, but it is in the 'country' library. Workmen trains are another beast altogether from Parlys; different fare structure on the majority of railways.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 23, 2010 1:22:12 GMT
[ — Current parliamentary trains include: Stockport to Stalybridge 11.28 (Saturdays only); Ellesmere Port to Warrington 00.00 (daily); Chester to Runcorn 08.25 (summer, Saturdays only); Lancaster to Windermere, via Morecambe 05.38 (Mondays to Saturdays); Sheffield to Cleethorpes (six trains, Saturdays only) [/b][/i][/font][/color][/quote] If prospective passengers are charged a penny per mile[1], then I'll eat my hat and rescind my antipathy towards the modern usage of 'Parliamentary'! I personally don't believe these are really parlys within in the meaning of the 1844 Act - I'm not too sure about the funding of the ghost bus - that smells a bit of the press! [1] or suitable nominal fare - considerably less than standard (NB. not 'Standard') rate. I realise that there have been several Acts and SIs that have modified the minimum charge applicable, but I can't immediately find them.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 23, 2010 0:26:37 GMT
Oo. That's mean. I'll have to look through my WTTs to find if there was ever an occasion when you could run non-stop in that fashion with 38 stock. I've seen the notices for the 'theatre train'; and I think I've got a copy somewhere.... Jolly good wheeze anyway!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 23, 2010 0:21:51 GMT
Pending further investigation - I suspect that c2000 was the change in terminology. Unfortunately, in many ways I'm a bit 'old school' in how I look at certain things, and whilst(grammer) it's not important in the grand scheme of things, a parly was run to fulfill an obligation enshrined in an Act of Parliament, not as a convenient 'fudge' to save the faff of an abandonment order - ISTR that the last statutory abandonment order was (coincidentally) for the FR when the bit from Dduallt to Tunnel Mess was officially abandoned in the 90s. I do think it is a misnomer to call the Olympia - Wandsworth Road service a 'Parliamentary' - after all the fares are charged at standard rate - unless anyone can provide a picture of an APTIS ticket with 'Parliamentary' endorsements.........
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 22, 2010 20:40:46 GMT
I suspect an example of each type will end up in the Museum collection, but this is a guess and by no means an official statement.
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 22, 2010 18:18:54 GMT
HAL: Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over. ;D ;D I think I shall wander to my local stress medicine shop: 'The Bell and Crown'. Anyway - parly trains were run to fulfill the obligations of the 1844 Regulation of Railways Act (before the train ran down the hill at Armargh), not to avoid abandonment orders. I suspect the ticket above dates from early 1880; printed by the same printers that did UndergrounD WTTs - Waterlows of London Wall.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 22, 2010 18:03:54 GMT
Ah,Waterloo Necropolis had its entrance just off York Road,so I must assume it was where the old International station is now. No, it was not on York Road but on York Street (now Leake Street) on the SE side of the station, until the station extensions on that sidein the twenties required it to be re-sited. <off topic> I have a great-uncle (possibly great-great uncle) who was dispatched by the Necropolis Railway and is buried vertically under his chosen arabic name in one of the muslim burial grounds at Brookwood. </off topic>
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 22, 2010 0:51:06 GMT
It is a 'Parliamentary' train, run so that the DfT doesn't have to go through the "formal closure to passenger" Grr. That is not a 'Parliamentary' train. Parlys were run at a penny per mile - the abject misuse of this term has grown out of an exceptionally badly edited wikipedia article. I suggest that the modern usage of a 'Parliamentary' train has only come about as a fairly blatant misuse of the term. Look at this (sorry for the off-UndergrounD example): That's not for a 'Parliamentary' train in your sense. Can someone edit the erroneous wikipedia entry? When did this awful misnomer begin? It's like calling bellringers 'campanologists'! *sizzle* *bit more sizzle* ;D
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 22, 2010 0:08:37 GMT
My first time seeing a Tooting Broadway train at Holborn WB (sailing under a heavy wind) in the bad old days (for about three months) you *could* set up some Northern Line descriptions on the Picc - remember KX (Picc) is the only 'V' frame with full covers and intended (albeit briefly) to be worked by a bobby. ISTR that the only possible descriptions that could be set up were NB advisory ['L' worked to 'J' IYSWIM] - full TD apparatus was provided EB/WB on the Picc. Hmm..... *thinks*
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 21, 2010 0:32:27 GMT
I asked my on-line dictionary to look up sybaritic. It thought about it for a few seconds and then gave me a blank white page. It's never done that before. A jolly good thing too. Your dictionary obviously didn't want to cause offence. You sure it wasn't made by the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation? ;D
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 20, 2010 23:54:51 GMT
If you're interested in clocks a contact from my earlier life at GPO/PO has a website on GPO clocks at www.alphacrocy.ifastnet.com/There is some documentation on Gent clocks there! I haven't had the chance to examine the site properly yet - looks as if it might be an enjoyable read. However - I'd better warn people that you might get a pop-up advertising something. Mine was the rather charming and sybaritic offer of 'Find h**ny s**g buddies in Tiverton'. Tiverton, really! Wonder if it was Devon, Ontario or Cheshire? EDIT: Oh! Those relay sounds bring back memories - although we only used the 30 second exchange pulse, and didn't have a Hipp Toggle either.
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