|
|
Post by astock5000 on Nov 7, 2008 16:50:19 GMT
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,317
|
Post by Colin on Nov 7, 2008 17:21:56 GMT
That's hardly new news - in any case it's incorrect! The correct dates are: - Metropolitan Line......2010 - 2011
- Circle and Hammersmith & City Lines......2011 - 2013
- District Line......2013 - 2015
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Nov 7, 2008 17:30:12 GMT
6 years to replace 56 A stock trains-in my dreams!!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 10:39:46 GMT
That's hardly new news - in any case it's incorrect! The correct dates are: - Metropolitan Line......2010 - 2011
- Circle and Hammersmith & City Lines......2011 - 2013
- District Line......2013 - 2015
I believe the District's Wimbledon - Edgware Road service will gain S stock in the dates shown for Circle and Hammersmith & City above. I am told the plan is that at least one S stock will be allocated daily from the commencement of C stock service replacement. |
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282 
|
Post by Ben on Nov 13, 2008 13:01:06 GMT
I'm not entirely convinced the Met will be A stock free by the Olympics. It seems that the closer the introduction date looms, the more infrastructure work there is to do.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2008 14:11:09 GMT
A question following on from TP's post a week or two ago about the infrastructure work required on the Circle and Hammersmith lines to allow 7 car operation. If it isn't completed by the time the stock is ready, can one car easily be removed for storage to leave the stock running in 6 car formation? Or is the train equipment configured in such a way that this would require more modification than simply reprogramming the train management computer? Btw, Benedict you have a PM  |
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,317
|
Post by Colin on Nov 13, 2008 14:32:06 GMT
IIRC from the the S stock meet, prjb did indicate that 6 car S's were being considered as a possible short term solution; however all S's are planned to be delivered by rail in their correct formations regardless. This is because of the walk through nature of the train and the fact that they are planned to stay in their formations until they're withdrawn.
Bottom line? It's a case of wait and see at this stage. I don't think anything can be ruled in or out as a certainty just yet.....
|
|
|
|
Post by 21146 on Nov 13, 2008 14:35:03 GMT
Rumours are beginning to the effect that the Circle/H&C will start as S6 and remain that way, ditto the Mets will be S7 along with the District. If so, and without SSL signalling upgrade, that's a huge reduction in seats per hour on the Met Main.
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Nov 13, 2008 14:40:43 GMT
Whats the total capacity of an S7 vs. an A8, assuming a maximum standing capacity of 4persons/m^2 for each?
|
|
|
|
Post by 21146 on Nov 13, 2008 15:53:20 GMT
Whats the total capacity of an S7 vs. an A8, assuming a maximum standing capacity of 4persons/m^2 for each? I'm sure the cattle-class S7 layout more than matches an A Stock in overall capacity with lots of standing room, but it's seats-per-hour that concerns me. Ditto the D Stock, there are usually one or two spare seats left in the front car when I board a District Line on early turn. The likelihood is they'll be occupied in the future and I won't be the only one one in this position. Of course if they could run more trains at shorter intervals... |
|
|
|
Post by astock5000 on Nov 13, 2008 17:06:54 GMT
Rumours are beginning to the effect that the Circle/H&C will start as S6 and remain that way, ditto the Mets will be S7 along with the District. If so, and without SSL signalling upgrade, that's a huge reduction in seats per hour on the Met Main. This don't make sense. If the Met S stock will be 7 car, then why are the pre-production trains 8 car? |
|
|
|
Post by 21146 on Nov 13, 2008 17:23:56 GMT
Rumours are beginning to the effect that the Circle/H&C will start as S6 and remain that way, ditto the Mets will be S7 along with the District. If so, and without SSL signalling upgrade, that's a huge reduction in seats per hour on the Met Main. This don't make sense. If the Met S stock will be 7 car, then why are the pre-production trains 8 car? I agree the initial build is 8 but will they fit into Baker Street and Aldgate platforms in this form? |
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Nov 13, 2008 17:28:42 GMT
Rumours are beginning to the effect that the Circle/H&C will start as S6 and remain that way, ditto the Mets will be S7 along with the District. If so, and without SSL signalling upgrade, that's a huge reduction in seats per hour on the Met Main. This don't make sense. If the Met S stock will be 7 car, then why are the pre-production trains 8 car? I have heard the same rumours. I have asked around for confirmation but apparently no decision has been made. The whole SSL project is in the melting pot because of the lack of money to do the job properly. I suspect Ken has spent so much money on buses and the ELL that he mortaged the London taxpayers to the extent that the barrell is now empty and the Icelandic bank crash has left them with a £40million debt. At present, there is a lot of optioneering going on. The SSL resignalling is being retendered - it will take 6 months just for the interested parties to pre-qualify so don't expect new signalling to start being installed until until 2013. ATO on the SSL is 10 years away at least. Then, where do you put S8s which are too long for Baker St Plat 4 without all sort of mods. They are too long for a lot of other places too. We might even see new S Stock trains going into storage. I have always thought S7s on the H & Circle was a step too far expensive and I think it will be dumped. It will save them £40m in train purchase costs - ho ho ho, what a co-incidence. Cynical, moi? |
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Nov 13, 2008 21:58:15 GMT
Sorry I haven't been around much Guys, I am snowed under at the moment with work and home life colliding in a festival of exhaustion!!  Apologies to you too TP - I will get back to you when I find 5 minutes between juggling working on the laptop and feeding the baby!  Right, where do I start?  The infrastructure work is behind yes, but progress is being made in all areas. I'm not trying to paint you all a 'rosy' picture here but it is difficult to list each individual work stream. I am involved in areas such as the train build and the last bits of design (obviously!  ), as well as other areas such as the new in-cab OPO Track to Train CCTV system and the signal sighting process. These work streams are behind, but not massively, we are pushing on and are confident of making up ground. Is it easy to remove a car? The simple answer is no! It would require an extensive amount of re-working and would also cost us money  because it is a deviation from the order. As far as I am concerned, hand on my heart, I am not aware of any current plan to remove a car from either the 8 or 7 car formations. I am working towards the delivery of 8 and 7 car 'S' Stocks into service and if the 'powers that be' have other plans then they haven't told the project team, honest! Do we have some issues fitting the 8 and 7 car trains into some locations? Too bl**dy right we do! ;D We are however working with our TfL colleagues (or should I say former Infraco colleagues?!!) to solve these problems. Yes, there has been some delay - mainly due (I think personally) to the situation with Metronet but everything is now back on line and everyone has woken up and are currently in the process of smelling the coffee! Bottom line is that Train 1 is built and under test and train 2 is also nearing completion. BTUK are making reasonable progress and the train is due in London some time next year. All these projects (train Arrestors, berthing solutions, stabling strategies, signal sighting, OPO works etc.) are steaming ahead in order to meet these deadlines. Will we make it? Honestly, I do not know but what I can say is that the project team and the engineers are trying damn hard to make it happen. Questions anyone?!! |
|
|
|
Post by happybunny on Nov 13, 2008 22:48:12 GMT
Will this train have CCTV cameras on the side for the OPO (like the new London Overground trains), or the same system as the Central line has with an antenna on the track? If the latter, will this be a problem on NR ?
|
|
|
|
Post by cetacean on Nov 14, 2008 0:43:39 GMT
Is it easy to remove a car? The simple answer is no! It would require an extensive amount of re-working AFAIK the S-stock two vaguely-independent (though permanently coupled) halves, which self-evidently are available in 3 or 4 car lengths. If so, surely it's just a case of building more 3s and less 4s? Are you saying there'd be a problem doing that, or that it'd be hard to convert 3s to 4s, or something else? |
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,443
|
Post by Chris M on Nov 14, 2008 1:18:24 GMT
If that is correct (and it's not how I understand it to be), wouldn't the 3-car 'halves' for Met duties need to have their internal layout revised?
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Nov 14, 2008 8:24:14 GMT
No, the S stock are block trains. There aren't 4 and 3 car units coupled, they are one train. Imagine trying to run the A stock in 3 car units-it wouldn't happen because the systems are interlinked from car to car, and all cars are dependent!
The Met better not get their layout revised or I'm bringing my own seat!
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,317
|
Post by Colin on Nov 14, 2008 12:15:03 GMT
No, the S stock are block trains. There aren't 4 and 3 car units coupled, they are one train. Whilst you are correct in saying they will run as block trains - they will be 3 or 4 car units coupled together and the numbering will reflect that. It is intended that the units will always run together as delivered, but never say never in terms of reforming the units |
|
|
|
Post by astock5000 on Nov 14, 2008 16:50:34 GMT
Do we have some issues fitting the 8 and 7 car trains into some locations? Too bl**dy right we do! Why was the S stock designed so that a Met S stock is longer than the A stock anyway? Bottom line is that Train 1 is built and under test and train 2 is also nearing completion. BTUK are making reasonable progress and the train is due in London some time next year. All these projects (train Arrestors, berthing solutions, stabling strategies, signal sighting, OPO works etc.) are steaming ahead in order to meet these deadlines. Will we make it? Honestly, I do not know but what I can say is that the project team and the engineers are trying damn hard to make it happen. Does the work at Baker Street and Aldgate (and probably some other places) have to me done by when train 1 is delivered for testing, or will the pre-production trains only do testing north of Neasden at first? |
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Nov 14, 2008 17:49:47 GMT
The Met has run longer trains before. 8 cars of T stock was about 12' longer on average, and you go back further 30 years, an 8 car train of steam stock including a Pullman and and a met vic on the end would have possibly been 45' longer (though not all in the platform).
It does mean though that more platform length is utilized on the district, where as I understand it now no platform is less than 405' long, or just over 7½ car lengths of A stock.
PRJB, just what percentage of the ~230 SSL platforms cannot accomodate their respective S stock trains at the moment, ignoring things like placement of OPO screens?
|
|
|
|
Post by astock5000 on Nov 14, 2008 17:55:55 GMT
The Met has run longer trains before. So why won't the S stock fit at some stations? |
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Nov 14, 2008 18:04:03 GMT
From what I understand, overruns have changed in length. Someone said something about full 25m over runs being needed at Baker Street, which in turn makes the platforms too short. Having to safeguard over disaster is now paramount, whereas say 40 years ago it was just a question of making the sand drag shorter to accomodate longer trains.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Nov 14, 2008 19:33:07 GMT
The Met has run longer trains before. 8 cars of T stock was about 12' longer on average, and you go back further 30 years, an 8 car train of steam stock including a Pullman and and a met vic on the end would have possibly been 45' longer (though not all in the platform). No, the T stock generally was no longer than the A stock. Only the 6 MV cars (reduced to 5) by the war were longer at 55'5'' (before MW conversion). The other cars were 53'9'' and the Dreadnoughts probably a little shorter after the side buffers were removed on emu conversion. The Steam stock (normally) ran in 6 car formations so with a loco they should have fitted into all platforms. They fitted into Liverpool Street Bay! Why has the S stock been designed so long-that's a good question!  |
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,317
|
Post by Colin on Nov 14, 2008 20:00:52 GMT
Whilst longer trains may have run in the past, not only have buffers, sand drags etc changed; changed track circuits are likely to cause some major headaches in places - perhaps the most classic of examples is Edgware Road.
I would imagine the platforms at Edgware Road are plenty long enough to accommodate a 7S, however the track circuits in the area, particularly the platform berth track circuits, will not cope with anything bigger than the standard 6 car C stock.
Edgware Road used to be able to take longer trains, but was modified some years ago - it can't be the only location likely to cause such problems - in fact I wouldn't betting a fair percentage of platform berth tracks will need modifying...............and modifying track circuits won't come cheap.......
Why indeed is S stock being built to a length which would appear to show an apparent lack of consideration for the limitations of the railway?
|
|
|
|
Post by stanmorek on Nov 14, 2008 22:13:03 GMT
The original PPP contract agreement was for 6 cars on the Circle. 7 cars was an option which LUL exercised later on.
The first person from Metronet I know to have done a feasibility on the civils works for S7 was back in late 2003. The first draft of the report had a single sheet of A4 per station. He knew back then that it would be pretty difficult to convince anyone to spend the sums of money required. He's now emigrated.
|
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Nov 15, 2008 0:13:33 GMT
Will this train have CCTV cameras on the side for the OPO (like the new London Overground trains), or the same system as the Central line has with an antenna on the track? If the latter, will this be a problem on NR ? There will not be cameras on the side, that would necessitate 1 camera per car which would mean the driver would have to scan 7 or 8 images at each platform. We consider that far too many to be scanned in a useful way. The 'S' Stock will be fitted with a new technology for OPO transmission. |
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Nov 15, 2008 0:17:36 GMT
AFAIK the S-stock two vaguely-independent (though permanently coupled) halves, which self-evidently are available in 3 or 4 car lengths. If so, surely it's just a case of building more 3s and less 4s? Are you saying there'd be a problem doing that, or that it'd be hard to convert 3s to 4s, or something else? The 'S' Stock are permanently coupled 7 or 8 car formations, but could theoretically be reconfigured so that one four car set could be coupled to another four car set (due to collision damage as an example). Put simply, what I am saying is that each car has a set amount of equipment , so if you remove a car then you would need to find a home for that equipment. In addition if we de-scoped the fleet numbers then there would be a substantial contractual financial penalty to pay and also a consequential delay to the program. |
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Nov 15, 2008 0:19:53 GMT
No, the S stock are block trains. There aren't 4 and 3 car units coupled, they are one train. Imagine trying to run the A stock in 3 car units-it wouldn't happen because the systems are interlinked from car to car, and all cars are dependent! That is exactly correct. The Met better not get their layout revised or I'm bringing my own seat! It won't, so therefore you won't! |
|
prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
|
Post by prjb on Nov 15, 2008 0:23:58 GMT
Why was the S stock designed so that a Met S stock is longer than the A stock anyway? Capacity basically. We are carrying 3 - 4 million people each day and the number is set to increase, we need the extra capacity simple as that. Does the work at Baker Street and Aldgate (and probably some other places) have to me done by when train 1 is delivered for testing, or will the pre-production trains only do testing north of Neasden at first? Good question! The work will not need to be completed for pre-series testing but will need to be completed soon after. Initial testing of Train 2 (the first train to come to London) will be done on the north end. |
|
Apologies to you too TP - I will get back to you when I find 5 minutes between juggling working on the laptop and feeding the baby! 
The infrastructure work is behind yes, but progress is being made in all areas. I'm not trying to paint you all a 'rosy' picture here but it is difficult to list each individual work stream. I am involved in areas such as the train build and the last bits of design (obviously! 
), as well as other areas such as the new in-cab OPO Track to Train CCTV system and the signal sighting process. These work streams are behind, but not massively, we are pushing on and are confident of making up ground.
because it is a deviation from the order. As far as I am concerned, hand on my heart, I am not aware of any current plan to remove a car from either the 8 or 7 car formations. I am working towards the delivery of 8 and 7 car 'S' Stocks into service and if the 'powers that be' have other plans then they haven't told the project team, honest!
