Colin
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My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Jun 2, 2009 2:17:55 GMT
It wasn't there! I checked before leaving my house, near Pimlico station, and at the scheduled time of just before 11pm on the tfl website, this appeared and I thought I was in luck. [a href=" "][/a] Click for full size - Uploaded with plasq's Skitch[/url] But...nothing. Nada, nicht, niente, rien! I ended up staying from about 11 to 11.35 and it certainly hadn't been past by then. To add insult to injury, I'm pretty sure I got charged two lots of full £4 fares for exiting at the same station - gutted! [/quote] Unfortunately that's a prime example of why we don't encourage posting the details of such things on the forum, as you've found out to your cost.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2009 7:54:06 GMT
No - I think it was a no show.
It will show up one day! ;D
How did you stay on a platform for 35 minutes? I didn't feel comfortable hanging around on the platform at all! I felt like it would have me classified as a potential jumper or a terrorist! :-(
If you call the Oyster helpline they will refund your 4 quids.
Cheers,
Dan
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Post by 21146 on Jun 2, 2009 10:06:33 GMT
If there was a trade union issue with the train's operation, as alluded to earlier, then maybe management didn't want to muddy the local industrial relation's water still further? Equally it might just have been a last minute technical glitch? However these trains do seem to be taking an incredibly long time to begin Traffic Hours operation, let alone in passenger service.
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jun 2, 2009 20:08:13 GMT
Unlucky!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2009 22:49:55 GMT
Hey, well one day they will run!! Although Im sure they should be renamed from 09 stock to 11 stock :-p
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Post by happybunny on Jun 2, 2009 23:56:42 GMT
Why didn't you just buy a platform ticket? Oyster PAYG isn't designed for train-spotting, its designed for travelling, hence the system gets confused if you have spent 35 minutes at a station, not gone anywhere, when there was no disruption. A platform ticket would have been more appropriate.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jun 3, 2009 11:05:15 GMT
This is a thing that really irritates me about oyster. I got caught out with that too when my mate and I did a tour of the ELL just before it closed. Got an £8 fine on oyster because I touched in and two hours later touched out at the same station. If I had bought a travelcard it wouldn't have happened, which is irritating. I can't see why fining people the full adult single fare is appropriate when to do it as a regular journey it would be capped at a travelcard rate (if during the daytime).
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Post by miztert on Jun 3, 2009 11:22:37 GMT
[...] To add insult to injury, I'm pretty sure I got charged two lots of full £4 fares for exiting at the same station - gutted! It might be worth checking this. When I've entered a station and then exited the same station shortly thereafter (using Oyster PAYG), I've only ever been charged the price of a journey from that station - so in the case of Pimlico that'd be £1.60, which is the Oyster PAYG fare for a z1 journey, which applies at any time. Also it hasn't messed up my capping either - indeed it has counted towards the capping. (Though when I did this at Vauxhall, a zone 1/2 'border' station, I was charged the z1 fare of £1.60 as opposed to a z2 fare of £1.10.) Note that I've only done this a handful of times, and only at stations with gates. Where there are standalone Oyster readers, the situation is likely to be more complicated, as some such readers may be configured to allow for multiple touch-ins, hence not allowing you to touch-out.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 3, 2009 11:39:24 GMT
At standalone readers on the DLR a couple of times I've touched out, and then at then a short time later touched in again at the same station. The system has regarded this as another touch out, and I've been charged £4 at my destination for not touching in.
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Post by miztert on Jun 3, 2009 13:46:00 GMT
At standalone readers on the DLR a couple of times I've touched out, and then at then a short time later touched in again at the same station. The system has regarded this as another touch out, and I've been charged £4 at my destination for not touching in. Can you remember what DLR station that was? And any idea of the total time that elapsed between the first touch-in (on the first journey) and the final touch-out (on the second journey)? I've got a few ideas on how the system works when it comes to standalone Oyster readers, such as those found on the DLR, but I haven't really extensively tested them out. (I'm afraid that many discussions I've taken of my discussions on this issue have happened in "another place", as they say in Parliament!) However my thinking is that at 'straightforward' DLR stations, where there's no interchange with other DLR routes or LU lines, the standalone readers offer a 'hard' entry or exit - in other words when you touch on them it does one or the other depending on the state of your Oyster card (in other words depending on whether it's been touched-in recently at another station where the journey started). However at DLR stations that offer some sort of interchange - whether that be interchange with other DLR routes or out-of-station interchange (OSI) with LU - I think the standalone Oyster readers might be set up in interchange mode', which means that you can touch on them multiple times (any of them at the station, not just the particular reader) but it will only ever be counted as a touch-in or touch-out - what I've called a 'soft' entry or exit in the past. Places where I think this may happen are Canary Wharf DLR, Poplar, West India Quay and Westferry (the latter two particularly for those who may have missed changing at Poplar). In each case when you change between platforms you pass standalone Oyster readers and I think you pass over the 'red line' which on the DLR denominates the 'fare paid' area (though to be honest I can't quite remember the arrangement at WIQ) - passengers might therefore think they have to touch-out and in again, so the system is set to be 'tolerant' of this. I spoke earlier of these standalone readers having an 'interchange mode', but it might be more complicated than that and they may have several variations of 'interchange mode' depending upon the situation - I'm specifically thinking of whether or not there's an OSI in the mix as well - e.g. Bow Church may be set up for a 'hard' entry or exit with regards to DLR only passengers, but is obviously also set-up for an OSI with LU at Bow Road. My thoughts are a mixture of observation and speculation - I need to do some more experimentation, and obviously be willing to donate some money to TfL (or else extract it back from them). I'm afraid to say many of the discussions I've been part of on this issue have happened in "another place", as they say in Parliament... I hope that saying this isn't regarded as heresy against the DD Forum and I'm not kicked off!
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Post by Alight on Jun 3, 2009 14:20:26 GMT
Just a reminder that this thread is about the 2009 tube stock in traffic hours, not oyster cards!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 3, 2009 14:30:38 GMT
It is indeed - however, what Mizter T has written in itself is quite interesting and merits further discussion. I have created a new thread in the DLR board here for the discussion on the Oyster issue; please keep this thread within the subject title, but by all means discuss the working of the Oysters in the new thread.
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Post by miztert on Jun 3, 2009 15:00:35 GMT
Yes I did veer off-topic somewhat, apols! At the 'other place' to which I referred earlier things go wildly off-topic all the time - but of course this is here and there is there, and at DD's place DD's rules apply - I don't want to incur the wrath of DD himself after all! So, an on-topic comment - I look forward to the 2009 TS generating a bit less heat down there in them hot old tunnels - is this a forlorn hope?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 3, 2009 15:12:33 GMT
I may be labouring under a misapprehension here, but the 09TS traction package has a greater efficiency so less heat will be dissipated; however all this will mean is that the tunnels will continue to heat a slower rate.
I (personally) think that only dedicated projects will see progress in cooling the tunnels, but anything to slow the net increase is no bad thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2009 17:56:06 GMT
I was hoping that we might have at least a few TS09's with their enhanced ventilation before this summer's heat, but no joy, alas.
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Jun 3, 2009 18:04:18 GMT
I may be labouring under a misapprehension here, but the 09TS traction package has a greater efficiency so less heat will be dissipated; however all this will mean is that the tunnels will continue to heat a slower rate. I (personally) think that only dedicated projects will see progress in cooling the tunnels, but anything to slow the net increase is no bad thing. Presumably if the (reduced) heat generated by the new stock no longer exceeds the rate of ambient heat dissipation,the ambient temperature will start to fall? What is the primary heat source on the Vic (allegedly London's hottest line)? I ws told that the 67s rheostatic braking was part of the trouble,coupled to the fact that there are no open sections to allow piston-effect ventilation by the trains. I was also told by some Vic drivers that,as built,the ventilation towers had fans to provide forced ventilation,but these were taken out of commission to save money on use and/or maintenance,and passive ventilation was relied upon.Is this true?
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Post by cetacean on Jun 3, 2009 18:22:32 GMT
What is the primary heat source on the Vic (allegedly London's hottest line)? The heat produced by the train is exactly equal to the amount of electricity it consumes. A proportion of the electrical energy is briefly converted to kinetic energy and only becomes heat when the train is brought to a stop. Ditto friction, sound, light, etc. It all becomes heat. It doesn't matter what kind of brakes the train has - the amount of kinetic energy to be dissipated is the same, and therefore so is the amount of heat that's dumped into the tunnel. The only think that can make a difference is regenerative braking, which means some of the kinetic energy goes back to being electricity rather than being released as heat.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2009 19:15:46 GMT
I was also told by some Vic drivers that,as built,the ventilation towers had fans to provide forced ventilation,but these were taken out of commission to save money on use and/or maintenance,and passive ventilation was relied upon.Is this true? I believe so - I think there was an article somewhere recently that work is now being done to put these back into service. I remember reading that when the line was opened it was predicted that it would be at a constant temperature of 72 degrees.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2009 21:53:52 GMT
There are quite a few ventilation shafts along the vic line which sadly do not work as they should do, but they are being upgraded and brought back into operation.
Although with the new trains Im not sure how much cooler it will be in the carriages as all there will be is forced air which will not be cooled, so its effectively just blowing around hot air, which I guess on its own is a plus.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 3, 2009 22:14:26 GMT
Well, using forced air will only add minimally to the heating effect, as cooling the air would be another heatdump into the tunnel. Further to what cetacean said upthread, the heating effect of the passengers travelling on the train also needs to be included in the calculations. A net loss of 0.5K will still eventually lower the temperature - the big thing is to get the air moving......
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jun 3, 2009 22:21:55 GMT
Presumably network expansion will also result in lower temperatures, the traffic volume (also a notable heat source) being spread over a larger area?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2009 22:29:42 GMT
It doesn't matter what kind of brakes the train has - the amount of kinetic energy to be dissipated is the same I believe the TS09 will have regenerative braking - so some of that kinetic energy will be "reabsorbed" and not radiated as heat.
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Jun 3, 2009 23:32:07 GMT
There are quite a few ventilation shafts along the vic line which sadly do not work as they should do, but they are being upgraded and brought back into operation. . The one at Antill Rd/Tynemouth Rd in Tottenham seems to be being demolished!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 3, 2009 23:40:09 GMT
Presumably network expansion will also result in lower temperatures, the traffic volume (also a notable heat source) being spread over a larger area? Well, you're between the devil and the deep blue sea there.... If you bring in more people and the line is still underground (Streatham loop et seq) then if the heating effect of the extra people matches that saved/converted then you are still back at square one. I think if I remember the Stefan-Boltzmann Law (sigma.T 4) [1] correctly the average hooman is about the same as a 100w light bulb. [1] sigma being the Stefan-Boltzmann constant, can't remember OTTOMH what exactly it is and T is Kelvin.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 4, 2009 0:06:53 GMT
Well Wikipedia says the constant is: but what the heck that means I haven't a clue!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2009 7:17:16 GMT
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Phil
In memoriam
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Post by Phil on Jun 4, 2009 7:37:38 GMT
I think the average hooman is about the same as a 100w light bulb. About that - depends how active they are. Figures range from 60W to around 100W so we're in the right ballpark.
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Post by Alight on Jun 4, 2009 8:55:11 GMT
I remember reading that when the line was opened it was predicted that it would be at a constant temperature of 72 degrees. I take it that's degrees fahrenheit and not centigrade?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 4, 2009 9:06:47 GMT
I remember reading that when the line was opened it was predicted that it would be at a constant temperature of 72 degrees. I take it that's degrees fahrenheit and not centigrade? I guess so, presumably means 295.4 K or 531.7 R ;D 19.75 °Rø looks the most showy though...........
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jun 4, 2009 10:04:13 GMT
I do have a table prepared by one of my lecturers of the heat gains of people doing various work, not quite sure how to read it though. I think it implies that as ambient temperatures go up, the heat gain taken into account from people slowly goes down. Or something. Seated people (possibly at an ambient temp of 22deg C) make between 35 and 90 watts, standing people make between 95 and 55 watts.
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