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Post by Tubeboy on Jun 18, 2007 13:05:58 GMT
Re Platform 3 at Camden, looking South, its a tight curve with the junction just out of sight, whereas the North end has no points, and is fairly straight, hence why I said he must have been stressed out.
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Post by jdgray1 on Jun 19, 2007 20:00:19 GMT
Whilst other factors may have contributed to the situation, I find it astonishing a "Professional" qualified train driver could find himself in this situation. Rather than sympathising with the driver for his mistake my sympathys would have been with the people he may have managed to kill.
Before anyone comments, yes I am a railway man with a National rail company and I would like to think LU drivers are trained with thorough route knowledge as we are and "sign"for their route. Therefore he should have recognised where he was and what direction he was facing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2007 20:02:59 GMT
Whilst other factors may have contributed to the situation, I find it astonishing a "Professional" qualified train driver could find himself in this situation. Rather than sympathising with the driver for his mistake my sympathys would have been with the people he may have managed to kill. Before anyone comments, yes I am a railway man with a National rail company and I would like to think LU drivers are trained with thorough route knowledge as we are and "sign"for their route. Therefore he should have recognised where he was and what direction he was facing. I totally agree with you, however i would like to point out, we are all human and all make mistakes. I am sure the same situation could occur on NR and i dare say has in the past and could in the future.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jun 19, 2007 20:43:44 GMT
Whilst I agree with you both, don't forget that on NR you are generally outdoors and it is fairly easy to recognise what road you are on and what direction you're heading in.
On the tube, one pipe looks very much like another and the chances of making such a mistake are higher because of this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2007 21:06:29 GMT
Whilst I agree with you both, don't forget that on NR you are generally outdoors and it is fairly easy to recognise what road you are on and what direction you're heading in. On the tube, one pipe looks very much like another and the chances of making such a mistake are higher because of this. That is also another very good point.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 19, 2007 21:39:30 GMT
Yes, I agree with all the above: he just DIDN'T CHECK. What still puzzles me though is that he didn't notice he was closing the doors on the 'wrong' side. Camden Town is a fair distance from the nearest 'doors on the left' (of T/op) station assuming he was coming up from Charing Cross.
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Post by mandgc on Jun 20, 2007 1:10:59 GMT
Driver's Error (Replies 31 & 32)
This was certainly an error by the Driver, however it seems such an unusual arrangement that I cannot see that many Drivers would have been asked to do it in the past. Has it been done before ?
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Post by 100andthirty on Jun 20, 2007 5:23:27 GMT
Comment made that the driver would have noticed the platform was on the wrong side when closing the doors. Unfortunately the image in the CCTV at any platform is identical regardless of which cab you're in.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 20, 2007 9:22:33 GMT
Comment made that the driver would have noticed the platform was on the wrong side when closing the doors. Unfortunately the image in the CCTV at any platform is identical regardless of which cab you're in. Aahh..... sod's law strikes again!! Thanks for that - never considered that situation. With mirrors/external monitors he'd have (probably) noticed... there weren't any!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2007 14:49:28 GMT
While he can't have done it deliberately, i do agree that this is something that should NEVER happen. Too many drivers are far too casual about their jobs and it is difficult to see a way to restore a bit more pride and responsibility to it. For example, if there was no station starter visible then why move? Camden Town is slightly different to Chesham!
Personally I have always carried route knowledge and defect books in my bag, the reason for this is that I want to confirm i'm correct before I do something unfamiliar, it may cause a short delay while I check, but safety must come first. The fact that from one year to the next I may barely glance at them is immaterial - these are the bits of kit that can save lives and your job.
Something must have seemed out of place to that Camden driver, it must have, (platform wrong side, no starter, unfamiliar pipe ahead etc) but they moved anyway. The more I think about it the less sympathy I have for the driver concerned. Of course, I don't like seeing anybody sacked, and I hope this can be avoided if possible, but moving a train in the wrong direction without authorisation is pretty much indefensible.
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Post by c5 on Jun 20, 2007 15:47:56 GMT
While he can't have done it deliberately, i do agree that this is something that should NEVER happen. Too many drivers are far too casual about their jobs and it is difficult to see a way to restore a bit more pride and responsibility to it. For example, if there was no station starter visible then why move? Camden Town is slightly different to Chesham! Personally I have always carried route knowledge and defect books in my bag, the reason for this is that I want to confirm i'm correct before I do something unfamiliar, it may cause a short delay while I check, but safety must come first. The fact that from one year to the next I may barely glance at them is immaterial - these are the bits of kit that can save lives and your job. Something must have seemed out of place to that Camden driver, it must have, (platform wrong side, no starter, unfamiliar pipe ahead etc) but they moved anyway. The more I think about it the less sympathy I have for the driver concerned. Of course, I don't like seeing anybody sacked, and I hope this can be avoided if possible, but moving a train in the wrong direction without authorisation is pretty much indefensible. Very nicely summed up there my friend! Particuarly the 2nd paragraph. On my Desktop on the PC I had links to all the WRM Procedures for out-of-the-ordinary things!
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Post by Tubeboy on Jun 20, 2007 15:50:39 GMT
Whilst I sympathize with the T/op, I do agree to a large extenrt with Prakash. I daresay this driver will go on the barrier.
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jazza
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Post by jazza on Jun 20, 2007 17:15:14 GMT
Fascinating reading, especially for a non railway employee like myself.
Two things came into my head will reading through the thread, as there was such an unusual event taking place, should there not have been platform staff/members of station management etc. overseeing the transfer of passengers and staff between the trains, and, do the platform staff have any responsibility for ensuring that everything is in order to ensure that the train departs safely.
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Post by Tubeboy on Jun 20, 2007 18:58:27 GMT
I would imagine station staff were on hand, and were clearly busy dealing with the [huge] crowds at Camden, and it would have been easy therefore to miss the T/op going into the wrong cab. This in itself is not unusual, as the staff might have thought he was attending to something in the "wrong" cab, or fetching his bag etc. At the end of the day, the T/op is responsible for the train, and not the station staff.
The station staff ensure that the signal is showing an appropriate aspect, to ensure the safe alighting/joining of passengers and to signal to the driver when the train is safe to leave, and to monitor the PTI [Platform-train interface] as the train pulls out.
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Post by jazza on Jun 20, 2007 19:38:05 GMT
The station staff ensure that the signal is showing an appropriate aspect, to ensure the safe alighting/joining of passengers and to signal to the driver when the train is safe to leave, and to monitor the PTI [Platform-train interface] as the train pulls out. Tubeboy, thanks for the info. As I said above I am not a railway employee so forgive me if this next thought on your response is wide of the mark. But would the driver not realise the platform staff were looking to the other end of the train as they signalled the all clear to depart.
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Post by Tubeboy on Jun 20, 2007 19:43:48 GMT
Well..................
The train might not [in this instance] have been given the "right" to depart by stn staff, as again, the T/op is responsible, and stn staff might nothave been on the platform, also the T/op is ultimately responsible for shutting the doors and departing.
As for the stn staff looking the other way, it happens, you could give a handsignal to the T/op, with your back facing him, as s/he will still see you giving the "right" [Now "assisted despatch"] on the platform-train cameras.
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Post by jazza on Jun 20, 2007 19:50:33 GMT
Thanks again for the insight mate
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Post by Tubeboy on Jun 20, 2007 20:07:34 GMT
Pleasure!
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Post by nexus6 on Jun 21, 2007 14:25:28 GMT
I know the driver who was waiting to come north when the other train came towards her. Yes, of course it was a bit of a shock, but she says there was never any chance of a collision and certainly not as serious as the ES made out in its report. It also said she had to take time off work for shock which is, wait for it, also untrue. She booked on for duty the next day as normal.
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