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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2007 12:25:35 GMT
I am not exactly sure why but I thought this was impossible. Or is it a typical Northern Line issue, having its signalling not quite up to date?
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Post by Chris W on Jun 14, 2007 12:48:11 GMT
Its also front page headlines in the Evening subStandard... now there's a surprise (not currently on their website @ 1:50pm) Is this just media over-reaction/misreporting or a genuine incident? REMEMBER: DO NOT NAME/IDENTIFY ANYONE IF YOU DO POST A REPLY (the press have used this site in the past to quote so-called sources).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2007 13:05:51 GMT
Trainstop failure?
The press really are numpties at times....
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Post by c5 on Jun 14, 2007 13:07:58 GMT
This really did happen. There is an RAIB Investigation and that is on their website, which is proberly how the press found out and got their story! Before coming here!!!
Not wanting to say too much (in case I end up in the Sub-Standard!)
There was no trainstop involved, I am led to believe as the train 'simply' went the wrong way.....
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Post by Chris M on Jun 14, 2007 13:15:06 GMT
Well if everything was working properly, at least one of the trains should have passed at least one red light to get into the position that occurred, although of course there are situations where a red light can be passed legitimately. We have had a thread that discussed fixed red lights at the tail end of single-direction platforms, although I think this was brought about by one at a Piccadilly Line station (Leicester Square perhaps?).
There are circumstances of course where the situation of trains meeting head-on could occur without a train passing a red light, but I can only think of ones involving things not working as they should. 1. Signal failure leading to no aspect being displayed. I think in this scenario a signal should be treated as being at danger, and specific authorisation must be obtained to pass it (e.g. from a hand signaller on the platform). 2. Signal or track-circuit failure leading to the wrong aspect being displayed. 3. A disc shunt signal being passed. I don't know if there are any at Camden Town, but regardless a shunt signal should not be passed in passenger service (and if the BBC article is correct, both trains were carrying passengers) 4. A driver taking a wrong stick. I don't know if the layout at Camden makes it possible for a wrong-stick to lead to a train approaching another head on.
I can't remember the name of them, but signals that allow a train to draw forward to couple up to another are not used at present as trains are not coupled and uncoupled outside of the depot.
If one train had broken down and the other was approaching to assist, it would be very unlikely for one train to be going the wrong way. Normally a train would approach from the rear, and presumably only a wrong-direction approach would be tried if the train in the rear could not assist for any reason (e.g if there wasn't one, or if it too had failed) or the assist from the rear had been tried and had not worked. In any of these situations though I would not be surprised for the pax to be detrained first.
The comment that one train operator has been stood down suggests to me that initial inquiries suggest the immediate cause of the incident was error by one operator.
Was there any engineering work or failures on the Northern on Sunday that involved any unusual running patterns?
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Post by Chris M on Jun 14, 2007 13:17:03 GMT
Having read all that, I though to read the RAIB site -
Investigation into an incident at Camden Town station on 10 June 2007 The RAIB is carrying out an investigation into an incident at Camden Town station on London Underground’s Northern Line on 10 June 2007.
At approx 17:35 hrs a northbound Northern Line train was incorrectly signalled into the High Barnet platform at Camden Town when it was scheduled to go to Edgware. To minimise passenger delay the following High Barnet train was signalled into the Edgware platform, and arrangements were made to exchange passengers and crews between the two trains. When the train in the High Barnet platform was ready to depart it set off in a southerly direction for a short distance; the driver saw the lights of the next northbound train, which was standing at a signal, and stopped the train. Arrangements were made to return the train to Camden Town station.
There were no casualties and no physical damage as a result of the incident.
--- The average time between an incident an RAIB report being published is about a year, so don't expect to know the full details before then.
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Post by c5 on Jun 14, 2007 13:26:18 GMT
Only two trains were involved - the incident train and the other nortbound one that was re-numbered at Camden. As per the RAIB Report.
Chris. The signal that clears onto an occupied section is known as a Calling On, there are no longer any of these in use. Some shunt signals (but not on the main line) can also clear if the section is occupied.
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 14, 2007 14:27:47 GMT
I offer the following story without prejudice and with the knowledge of what it's like when you are having a bad day on the front. Our driver (of the Barnet train) accepts the wrong signal approaching CT NB and arrives in Platform 1 (Edgware branch)instead of Platform 3 (Barnet branch). OK, this is the first mistake he makes. At least he remembers where he's going and fesses up. It is decided from "on high" to route the next Edgware train into Platform 3 (for Barnet) and swap the passengers, drivers and train numbers over. This way you keep the crews on the right duties and the punters get home. Now imagine the chaos this decision creates - not that there's much else you can do. Two whole trainloads swapping at Camden at 17:40, even on a Sunday. The poor bastard driver of the Barnet train is probably looking at being relieved at Finchley, D & Aing and a DB tomorrow and, at the same time, struggling with a mass of outraged punters to find his way to a platform on the other side of the station, which he probably doesn't know well (they don't do reliefs at Camden any more do they?) to find the former Edgware train which he has been told to take to Barnet. He finally finds a platform with a train on it described as Barnet. He goes to where he thinks the front is, opens up etc. and off he goes. As if all this wasn't enough, he now sees the headlights of a train (probably one standing at E11B) immediately ahead of him and decides this is not his day. So he stops and has to go back to platform 3. Could it get any worse? Can you imagine what he's going through? If you have ever had any compassion for anyone, this is a good and deserving case. There but for the grace of ............etc. etc. This case is similar to the one at Kings Cross a few years ago when a Picc driver was told to reverse west to east and did it in the WB platform instead of shunting forward over the crossover. This was when they put in all the stop lights/signs at possible wrong direction locations. Camden No 3 has a sign, ISTR. Our incident driver must have passed it. I expect they will end up replacing them all with red lights.
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Post by jamesb on Jun 14, 2007 16:40:43 GMT
I tend to agree with tubeprune. We are all human, and we can all make mistakes. It is for that reason that safety systems are built in at every level. But nothing is perfect. Nothing is 100% risk free.
Rather then focus the attention on criticising the driver I think it is more important to examine the situation and the safety systems which did or didn't work, and how it was sorted out.
I feel deeply sorry for the driver. We assume he made a mistake and it is very embarrassing. But thankfully nobody was hurt.
From my own limited experience very obvious and embarrassing things, which could have serious implications are easy to do - like getting your left and right mixed up when looking at an X-ray! But 99.9% of the time, somebody notices the mistake. I believe this was a 0.1% occurrence which is important and could be learned from, but not a personal attack on the driver.
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Post by Oracle on Jun 14, 2007 16:42:26 GMT
What happened to the poor soul who who went through that hell, TP? Sack?
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Post by solidbond on Jun 14, 2007 18:47:32 GMT
If you read the RAIB report of the incident, it seems that it was the train from the High Barnet platform which went in the wrong direction, which would mean it was the same train that had been routed into the wrong platform. Therefore it must have been the driver who hadn't accepted the incorrect signal that ended up going the wrong way. In other words, it seems that both drivers had made a mistake - one taking the wrong signal, the other heading in the wrong direction.
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 14, 2007 19:45:51 GMT
If you read the RAIB report of the incident, it seems that it was the train from the High Barnet platform which went in the wrong direction, which would mean it was the same train that had been routed into the wrong platform. Therefore it must have been the driver who hadn't accepted the incorrect signal that ended up going the wrong way. In other words, it seems that both drivers had made a mistake - one taking the wrong signal, the other heading in the wrong direction. You are right SB; I got the wrong end of the stick (groan). I misread the report. So now we have two drivers deep in it. Still, you have to feel for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2007 8:49:30 GMT
word is, from a northern line driver i know, that tubelines had covered up the fixed red/wrong road starter or whatever it is they have at camden. (dont know the layout). not that that excuses what the driver did, but you have to feel for them. must have been a new bloke if he didnt recognise the head/tailwall or what side the platform was etc... got to feel for them though.
a bloke on the was told to reverse west to east at kings cross last year and took it halfway to euston square and stopped randomly as he couldnt see a LOS/6 car board, changed ends and started driving eastbound on the westbound road back towards kings cross. the reason he couldnt see a LOS board is that the crossover is east of KX not west and all he needed was to change ends and wait for wrong road starter to clear.
word is, he got dipped for 2 years on protected earnings. (dunno if anyone can clarify?) surely this is a precedent that can be used by his reps to help the driver who f**ked up at Camden.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 15, 2007 9:26:26 GMT
If Prakash is right and the fixed red was covered, that driver is almost in the clear. His only mistake was not knowing which end of the platform was which; and if crews never normally change there, then it will not be a 'rule book' move. It seems his only real error was to proceed without actually seeing a 'green' (or any colour).
Of course, then there's Tubelines who have committed an almost cardinal error if the reports are true........
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Post by Oracle on Jun 15, 2007 9:46:03 GMT
he got dipped for 2 years on protected earnings Excuse my irnorance but what does "dipped" mean? Demoted or taken off trains but at the same rate of pay?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2007 11:50:41 GMT
i am surprised that if the driver had started up against a fixed red light he/she wasn't tripped surely there would've been a trainstop in place?
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Post by Colin D on Jun 15, 2007 13:42:22 GMT
I agree you have to feel for the T/ops involved, but wouldn't the train have been back tripped or was the error realized before the whole train had left the stn
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2007 14:04:04 GMT
he got dipped for 2 years on protected earnings Excuse my irnorance but what does "dipped" mean? Demoted or taken off trains but at the same rate of pay? More or less, yeah... RAIB report is on the site... will be around 6-8 months before the investigation is published in full...
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jun 15, 2007 15:16:01 GMT
Which was it...demoted and / or taken off driving and given a station job? How in heck do you get back after two years....after retraining presumably?
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Post by trc666 on Jun 15, 2007 15:23:15 GMT
I would presume after two years, the driver would be re-trained.
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Post by Tubeboy on Jun 15, 2007 17:08:44 GMT
The driver must have been confused/stressed to quite a degree, as the track layout on the North and South at platform 3 are radically different.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2007 17:20:10 GMT
i am surprised that if the driver had started up against a fixed red light he/she wasn't tripped surely there would've been a trainstop in place? not all FRL (fixed red lights) have trainstops with them i.e upney westbound has one at the east end west ken eastbound does not have one stopping a driver going from the eastbound towards barons court on the eastbound
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 15, 2007 21:38:04 GMT
The driver must have been confused/stressed to quite a degree, as the track layout on the North and South at platform 3 are radically different. Yes, accepting all I said earlier, didn't it cross the driver's mind that once in his cab he was closing the doors on the OPPOSITE side to previously (and the opposite to what he would expect)? He must have been well confused (and presumably totally p*ssed off since it wasn't his mistake but he was being made to take the long walk).
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Post by Tom on Jun 15, 2007 22:31:38 GMT
i am surprised that if the driver had started up against a fixed red light he/she wasn't tripped surely there would've been a trainstop in place? not all FRL (fixed red lights) have trainstops with them i.e upney westbound has one at the east end west ken eastbound does not have one stopping a driver going from the eastbound towards barons court on the eastbound The high risk sites got them, the medium risk got just FRLs and the low risk tunnel stations got stop boards.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2007 22:47:44 GMT
can't they just put a wooden block in the ground that will trip a trainstop if it goes past?
There must be a reason why not as it seems quite simple.
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Post by c5 on Jun 15, 2007 22:56:08 GMT
It would need to be a trainstop that can be lowered otherwise it would rear trip other trains. Of course creating circuits and the gubbins for this would cost LUL money! So each site would be assesed on risk - just like Tom said.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2007 18:12:58 GMT
I would presume after two years, the driver would be re-trained. We have 2 drivers who have been "dipped" and every case is (quite rightly) treated individually depending on the cirumstances, history and representation the driver had. In some cases drivers will have a route back on the front of the train, however in many more the driver will need to reapply for a train op job. Some drivers are offered protected earnings for a period of losing their train op licence, some don't.
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Post by abe on Jun 18, 2007 9:19:11 GMT
The driver must have been confused/stressed to quite a degree, as the track layout on the North and South at platform 3 are radically different. Yes, accepting all I said earlier, didn't it cross the driver's mind that once in his cab he was closing the doors on the OPPOSITE side to previously (and the opposite to what he would expect)? He must have been well confused (and presumably totally p*ssed off since it wasn't his mistake but he was being made to take the long walk). When the driver left the train on the Barnet branch platform he would have had the platform on the left of the train. When he arrived at the Edgware branch platform he got onto the train at the end with the platform again on the left. But because the platforms at Camden Town are all on the 'inside' of the V layout, this would have placed him at the wrong end of the train. He would therefore have closed the doors on the same side... Given the maze of steps and tunnels he would have walked through to get between the platforms, the fact that he didn't notice that he'd walked the length of the train is not surprising.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2007 9:53:04 GMT
Yes, accepting all I said earlier, didn't it cross the driver's mind that once in his cab he was closing the doors on the OPPOSITE side to previously (and the opposite to what he would expect)? He must have been well confused (and presumably totally p*ssed off since it wasn't his mistake but he was being made to take the long walk). When the driver left the train on the Barnet branch platform he would have had the platform on the left of the train. When he arrived at the Edgware branch platform he got onto the train at the end with the platform again on the left. But because the platforms at Camden Town are all on the 'inside' of the V layout, this would have placed him at the wrong end of the train. He would therefore have closed the doors on the same side... Given the maze of steps and tunnels he would have walked through to get between the platforms, the fact that he didn't notice that he'd walked the length of the train is not surprising. I also think that the arrangement of platforms at Camden Town may have confused the driver. Also, as far as I'm aware the junction is not visible from the SB end of the High Barnet platform (which would have given another clue about being at the wrong end)!
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Post by mandgc on Jun 18, 2007 10:17:09 GMT
The North- and South-bound lines at Camden are on different levels with a trailing crossover being situated at Mornington Crescent for reversing purposes ( where the two lines are at the same level ) and, except with written authority during Wrong Line Working or when authorised by the Pilotman during Single Line Working, a train would NEVER be expected to proceed in the opposite direction from the platform. This was an exceptional situation that could not, till now, justify a train stop or Fixed Red Light to be provided at the rear of a train. My sympathies are with the Driver on finding himself in such a position.
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