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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 18:15:34 GMT
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Post by 21146 on Mar 22, 2008 18:32:47 GMT
LU is now keen to avoid using rail replacement (RR) buses whenever possible now because of the increased cost accrued due to the new Low Emission Zone. RR buses tend of course to be older models and thus incur the £XXX per day penalty charge. In fact during unscheduled closures of sections of line, buses will no longer be sourced in future if London Buses Centrecom deem that existing routes can cope with the extra demand. So one part of TFL is penalising the other - talk about joined-up thinking...!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 18:46:51 GMT
thanks - Now that I've read your response I've just changed the title of the post to make more sense it is "rail replacement" not "bus replacement"
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 23, 2008 0:57:26 GMT
Does he make fair points? Absolutely. I have been a rail replacement bus driver, and a rail replacement supervisor (a "yellow jacket" if you like) - couple that with my stations experience.............. He is spot on about staffing, getting the vehicles, and the effect that running a rail replacement service can have on local traffic - especially in London. All of the buses that are used on rail replacement, especially on saturdays, are normally school buses or peak extras from monday to friday allocations. In the case of the school buses, they're often driven by part time staff - how do you think the bus drivers are sourced for this extra work? I'll tell ya! They are all on overtime, with a little help from those part timers and occasionally those that do this work 'for fun' (there one or two members on this forum that are normally on the front of a train, but you can sometimes find them driving rail replacement buses on a rest day *). Running a rail replacement service on a sunday is far easier - there are more buses available and more drivers on rest days. Perhaps you can now see that just getting the vehicles and drivers is hard enough, let alone causing traffic chaos by running more & more vehicles just to provide the same number of seats as a train - and if you run more vehicles, don't forget you need adequate space at each end of the route to cater for 'stand time' etc. Oh yeah, he's also quite right in that it's the rail companies that dictate the frequency of service, routing, distribution of information, etc - the operators that provide the actual service are just the 'middle men'. The information at Gunnersbury was a little poor, and it's bad to see such sloppiness, but please don't tar all public transport staff with the same brush - some of us do try damm hard to do a good job! What you have displayed, and I mean no disrespect here, is the classic ignorance is bliss & I'm more important thing. We're all guilty of it at some time or other, but hopefully now that you've gained some insight, you can appreciate that there is actually a bigger picture of what happens & why? I also never knew that free rides on the Heathrow Express were in place when the Piccadilly Line was down. I really wouldn't bank on that - it's one persons experience and the more it's publicised, the more likely LUL/Heathrow Express are to do something about it *= these people do have official agreements with their managers to do work outside of their normal LUL jobs, so such work is completely 'above board'
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 1:38:18 GMT
Thanks Colin - and I know that you mean no disrespect. Of course I understand the bigger picture and I know that you know I understand the bigger picture. I wouldn't have been writing a blog about the Tube for five years to have not understood the bigger picture by now (even if only as a commuter).
What bothers me most about Mr Sullivan's reply to me is that he assumed that because I was swearing and shouting I was just another nutty consumer who knows nothing about nothing. The people who work for public transport should have more of an idea that thanks to the fact that anyone can be a reporter now - anyone they are speaking to, could have their bad experience spread over the front cover of a national newspaper, broadcast on the radio or highlighted in a blog.
Did he not wonder why I chose to hang around the "wrong" bus stop after his colleagues eventually told me to move to the "right" bus stop a nano second further down?
Did he not wonder why I was taking pictures in the rain of all of the yellow jackets sitting under the shelter apparently doing nothing?
He did not choose to ask me why I was showing all the signs of someone with much more than a passing interest in what was going on at Acton Town.
The fact of the matter is that it's his job to deal with customers like myself, however badly I was acting at the time. He was being to paid to do that at the time. It's not my job as a consumer to have sympathy for him or to understand the bigger picture (even though I do). It's my concern to get from A to B in the fastest possible way and I expect an overly expensive public transport system to help me do that with as much clear information as possible.
As you say yourself the information at Gunnersbury was far from clear.
Thanks
Annie
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 1:55:07 GMT
BTW - I know that if the Met Police had been around, I would have showed classic signs of being a "potential terrorist" by my "photography in the rain" photos. As I've been questioned by the police for taking photographs of public transport, I know that I'm acting perfectly within my rights of taking pictures of people's backs in a public area. As you can tell I would have possibly even enjoyed (in a sad blogging way) having had the Met Police question me. It would have added further "insult to injury" to that journey
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 23, 2008 2:07:00 GMT
I quite agree that from the ordinary customers viewpoint, any problem at all whether it be a passenger alarm on the train in front, a signal failure, a rail replacement bus instead of a train or worse still....no replacement of any kind - it's bloomin' frustrating.
The ordinary customer has no interest in the reasons - they generally have no desire to know, and why would they? All they're interested in is traveling from A to B.
As someone who works in the industry, and want's to provide the service, I (and my colleagues) find it equally frustrating trying to help the very same customers - we know it's a necessary evil, but somehow we all have to muddle through together (that's staff and customers!).
Just one other point - and again I appreciate the ordinary customer doesn't really care - but it's often overlooked that public transport workers do also use their own services.........so they can be equally affected by such problems (though admittedly with the benefit of 'insider knowledge').
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 8:43:40 GMT
What bothers me most about Mr Sullivan's reply to me is that he assumed that because I was swearing and shouting I was just another nutty consumer who knows nothing about nothing. The people who work for public transport should have more of an idea that thanks to the fact that anyone can be a reporter now - anyone they are speaking to, could have their bad experience spread over the front cover of a national newspaper, broadcast on the radio or highlighted in a blog. Any any blogger, or any member of the public, who decides to swear at a public employee should be reminded that it is an offence to do so and by admitting so on a public forum could open themselves to being investigated by the BTP.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 11:43:07 GMT
The fact of the matter is that it's his job to deal with customers like myself, however badly I was acting at the time. He was being to paid to do that at the time. Sorry, but any sympathy I may have had vanished the moment I read that. Regardless of how useless you perceive them to be, nobody should have to put up with being sworn at while they're doing their job and are probably not paid enough to put up with things like that. You wouldn't like it if someone came to your place of work and did the same thing to you. I work with the public and would not put up with customers swearing at me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 13:17:16 GMT
Actually if I were in my job and did something that I believed I had a right to be sworn at for, I would put up with it. Of course I wouldn't like it but I wouldn't think of getting the police involved. I was not racist, I did not spit at them, I did not physically abuse them. I would imagine the BTP would have every right to be involved if I did that. You are making me out to be some kind of public enemy number one. But you've got your own opinion to do that - fair enough.
Mr Sullivan was perfectly within his rights to say "can you stop using that language" - if he had done I would have stopped swearing. The staff that I swore at were also perfectly within their rights to do the same thing and none of them told me to stop swearing at them either.
If they felt that they were being that abused by me, why did they not call the BTP at the time?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 13:48:10 GMT
I am disapointed that you feel it is acceptable under any circumstance to "launch a triade of abuse" including swearing towards anybody. And you can personally justify it.
Everybody has the right to be angry when the public transport system let's them down. However NOBODY has the right to bully and intimidate staff when this happens.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 23, 2008 13:52:58 GMT
Perhaps it was wrong to swear at him but I do think that it must be understood that passengers are going to be annoyed if things are all disjointed and they are being messed around. Yes, it may not be the bloke in the orange jacket's fault, but unfortunately passengers are going to get annoyed. I've never sworn at transport staff, but I assure you I have had plenty of insults the opposite way, from bus staff.
Though by the sounds of it, the circumstances are outwith the control of the operator, as TfL dictates the route and even timetable, and the operators simply provide the buses. When I saw the operations the weekend before it looked like there were many operators running the service, with TfL coordinating things.
As an aside Sullivan buses looked to be very MASSesque, but I suppose not many operators can provide spare capacity other than those who specialise in schools and contract work. I know a couple of drivers up here who occasionally do Saturdays overtime on RRBS routes, and get paid in the region of a tenner an hour in some cases, which isn't bad considering an average bus driver is on £6-£8.
So, yes Annie may have been in the wrong by swearing and shouting, but I think the people to blame are those who caused her to do so - i.e. the people who provide poor information, who don't organise things properly etc. Service disruptions etc yes may be unavoidable, but can be accepted, what does annoy people though is when the staff are unhelpful. c.f. my being told to get a Piccadilly train a few months back, despite my protestations that I had just been told it was suspended, to find the train getting tipped out at Earls Court...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 16:57:52 GMT
This behavior towards people who are just doing their jobs is dreadful, and yes I am speaking as someone who is at the sharp end. By all means complain to the management but not the people out there doing their best in difficult circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 17:16:38 GMT
Actually if I were in my job and did something that I believed I had a right to be sworn at for, I would put up with it. That's fair enough but how is what happened at Gunnersbury the fault of those at Acton Town? What had they done wrong that caused you to get on the wrong bus at Gunnersbury? I doubt they were all told that they could go and base themselves at any station they wanted so it's not their fault that there was one person at Gunnersbury and more at Acton. Thus they had done nothing to warrant being sworn at. That would be like someone coming in to my store, ranting and swearing at me for something that happened in a different store. (The above is based on the assumption that replacment bus services are co-ordinated by TFL and that the indivdual companies effectively just turn up and do as they're told. I'm happy to be corrected on this.) You're right that they could have asked you to stop swearing but in my experience this just generally makes people worse. That might just be me but perhaps they've had similar experiences and therefore decided against it. I can sense that we're probably unlikely to agree on this though Tom, yes I understand that passengers will be annoyed when things like this happen but it does not give them the right to verbally abuse members of staff. Unfortunately transport and other customer service staff are often seen as easy targets because they can't really stand up for themselves.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 23, 2008 18:20:15 GMT
It doesn't give them the right, no, but I think the people who are to blame are those who cause the annoyance in the first place.
I don't know about these individuals but what annoys me most about customer service staff is when they are unhelpful, grumpy and rude, especially when you yourself have been messed about by their company.
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Post by glasgowdriver on Mar 23, 2008 18:59:26 GMT
i totally agree with ss stig and colin on this one i am getting fed up time and time again of people not planning there journey when using tube bus dlr or any form of transport people just expect the tube lines to be running the minute they step foot out of there door i am sorry but there is such a thing called JOURNEY PLANNER that you can use to PLAN YOUR JOURNEY believe it or not weeks in advance and it does actually tell you of PLANNED ENGINEERING WORK so before you go off shouting and swearing at staff check your journey first and then think twice about swearing at someone whilst i totally agree with SS STIG if you swear at someone then i think it should be dealt with the BTP as its verbal assualt you wouldnt walk up to someone in the street start swearing at them incase they turned against you so dont take it out on staff who you know are not gonna shout back or lay a finger on you because then the staff get into trouble because there wearing a uniform i think it should be dealt with totally aswell and back anyone on this who is standing up to you for your stupid mistake!!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 19:21:56 GMT
It doesn't give them the right, no, but I think the people who are to blame are those who cause the annoyance in the first place. I don't know about these individuals but what annoys me most about customer service staff is when they are unhelpful, grumpy and rude, especially when you yourself have been messed about by their company. I agree with your first paragraph, but on your second (BTW I am not customer service) you seem to me to be inferring it is commonplace.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 23, 2008 19:53:58 GMT
Sorry, should have clarified, it's not commonplace, but it does occur sometimes. I was actually talking about staff outwith the railway, where it is more common than on the railway, presumably because railstaff are more likely to be in it for the long run than someone who works at McDonalds.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 20:30:17 GMT
Having been on the receiving end of verbal abuse and a physical assault, I would not even consider shouting at persons whom are trying to provide a service to the public. This gets no-one nowhere. Unfortunately, a tiny minority of people see the person in uniform as an easy target to take their anger out on... My being assaulted was caused non other than children tresspassing on the tracks, so services were suspended while police shepherded them to safety. This pax, upset over the delay, took it out on me, and caused an even longer delay. Of course, if it had been his child on the tracks, me thinks he would have wanted us to stop running trains... He dinnae think of that, just himself.
Usually, when people get angry with me, I refuse to talk to them and just back away... when they ask why I'm not acknowledging them, I simply say I will do when you find yourself able to hold a civil conversation with me... This normally restores order and co-operation, eventually, they understand!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 11:38:24 GMT
The moral of the story seems to me to be this: always check the TfL website before setting off on a journey at the week-end. I learnt this the hard way last Friday, so my trip to Putney to-day is on the bus (and also saving half the price of a latte when I get back ).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 14:03:56 GMT
Everybody has the right to be angry when the public transport system let's them down. However NOBODY has the right to bully and intimidate staff when this happens. Agree with you 100% Stig. I must admit I was a little dismayed while reading this post, working on the frontline myself I appreciate what goes on, and any abusive or strong language is not tolerated. I find it unfortunate some people out there see it as acceptable. It would be in their interests if they rethink a few things.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 23:25:21 GMT
As one of those mentioned by Colin who also does some driving and controlling of rail replacement buses. I've seen and heard most things !
Yes, the coverage, frequency, routings and the numbers of customer information staff to be posted at each station is pretty much all directed by TfL. Sometimes TfL provide the Customer Information Staff, more recently they are more likely to be provided by the contract operator.
Bus stop signage is provided by London Buses, station signage by London Underground. On Bus signage is provided by TfL, it is for the operator to ensure it is displayed (this consists of a Line diagram for the replacement bus, and a destination board for the front windscreen). The bus route blind requirements is to show "Rail Replacement Bus" but a few operators, notably First, Blue Triangle and Sullivan Bus provide rather better displays.
In my experience most complaints are generated because passengers did not read the information presented to them. In that they insist the rail closure was not posted at their home station (we know that they are at all LUL stations). Or they did not read the destination on the bus front, but merely followed other people assuming they were going to the same place. Station entrance signage shows which stop buses depart to for which destinations. (Information staff are not provided at all locations at all times.)
I've lost count of the times I may have announced continually the bus I'm driving is a "fast" "non-stop" service to "xxx" only to have the bell go after 100 yards because someone thinks they are on a number 34 !! (or whatever) !
Most moans revolve around the fact the tube isn't running, which is, of course, nothing to do with the bus staff.
It is also worth noting that where two different routings are running they may have been contracted to different operators and thus one may have no knowledge of the other. The information presented to drivers, controllers and information staff is usually non-existant, so they will know only where the replacement buses are going and thus to answser questions on where a bus is going or running from. (The controllers job is to deal with bus drivers and the service, not passengers.)
For the most part there should be no need to ask questions of anyone.
Heathrow Express usage is a difficult one for making on train PA announcements, making them at a relevant point is a matter of judgement, and then LUL train staff do not know the operating hours, plus there are nuances to do with the ticket types that must be held to enable free travel, this is beyond the reasonable remit of an announcement, whist also maintaining train safety.
Colin is right about traffic problems, a few weeks back it took exactly 55 mins to drive the bus from Richmond to Kew Gardens, everyone sat patiently and no one said a word !
LUL's decision not to provide replacement buses for some jobs is, however, a puzzle ! The absence of buses on the recent Earls Court - Edgware Road shutdown, hardly has the most obvious of easy alternatives !
The poor signage on DLR replacements used to be notable if it existed at all, and you don't get customer information staff there. Likewise many National Rail jobs.
Shouting at staff on the ground though is unlikely to result in any improvements, those visible are rarely in a position to do anything about valid complaints, but you may well find yourself stopped from using the service !
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 1:47:28 GMT
In my experience most complaints are generated because passengers did not read the information presented to them. In that they insist the rail closure was not posted at their home station (we know that they are at all LUL stations). Agreed; the number of people who come and complain to me because they supposedly came through that station all week and never saw or heard a word about anything is ridiculous - especially in cases where I've been working that station all week, know perfectly well that posters have been on display and announcements have been made and running at certain intervals since I've heard - or in some cases, recorded them - myself.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 2:31:30 GMT
i totally agree with ss stig and colin on this one i am getting fed up time and time again of people not planning there journey when using tube bus dlr or any form of transport people just expect the tube lines to be running the minute they step foot out of there door i am sorry but there is such a thing called JOURNEY PLANNER that you can use to PLAN YOUR JOURNEY believe it or not weeks in advance and it does actually tell you of PLANNED ENGINEERING WORK so before you go off shouting and swearing at staff check your journey first and then think twice about swearing at someone whilst i totally agree with SS STIG if you swear at someone then i think it should be dealt with the BTP as its verbal assualt you wouldnt walk up to someone in the street start swearing at them incase they turned against you so dont take it out on staff who you know are not gonna shout back or lay a finger on you because then the staff get into trouble because there wearing a uniform i think it should be dealt with totally aswell and back anyone on this who is standing up to you for your stupid mistake!!! *Catches breath* Are fullstops & sentences too much to ask for!? What many people in customer service roles don't understand, is that the general public see someone in uniform who works in transport as a way of venting their anger. This may have nothing to do with the issue in hand most of the time, but we are there and they can't help but let it all out. Someone in a customer service role should always let the person vent their anger. Interrupting and instigating only ever makes it worse. You'll also find that 99.9% of the time, the person will apologise and feel like a right pillock when the have finished. I think you are completely wrong about it being their "stupid mistake". You seem to forget that the vast majority of the general public are quite oblivious to what goes on in the real world behind closed doors, and engineering works can mean absolutely nothing to them, no matter how far in advance they were planned. Don't forget, if the general public did know every little piece of information about closures, problems & ways of solving them, ticketing etc etc, people in customer service would be redundant, as they wouldn't be needed. If you have to put up with someone swearing/shouting at you for only just 5 minutes a week, think about those who have genuinely been thankful for your help, and how they are keeping you in a job. This is how I get through my day.
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 25, 2008 7:43:43 GMT
Gosh!
Firstly I would say that having worked in LUL engineering for 28 years I tried my best to stay out of the customer's way as it always an operating staff job to direct customers. I became galvanised to this behaviour early in my career when I always did my best to be helpful if asked 'how do I get to ... etc' but nevertheless would always suggest that advice be sought from an operating official. In general terms I quickly discovered that not always having a complete answer made me some kind of target and so I simply directed all queries to station staff from then onwards.
Secondly, there is nothing more frustrating than being an 'insider' and being 'mucked about' by front line staff. To their credit, however, those at the sharp end are willing to stand up and spout the official line, frequently in a hostile environment, believing it to be correct because that is what they are paid to do. Even off duty staff have to 'swallow' the spiel whether it is correct or not, there is no special treatment and no 'magic taxi'. I cannot blame the front line staff at all but there is often room to blame the managers and organisers who often do not always seem to be singing from the same 'hymm sheet'.
However, it is not always fair to blame management either especially at local levels because they are paid to manage situations and by definition local management is firmly grounded in the art of reaction based upon policy. Sometimes there is a delay between an event and a reaction and the length of that delay is dependent upon the methods of communication between the many elements of the operating organisation. At higher management levels there are greater policy issues and 'the bigger picture' which may incur additional delays at the sharp end until the prevailing trends are clear.
It may not be popular but like it or not the front line staff are doing their best and so are the managers at all levels within the constraints of service operations on the day. I have no doubt that the managers and staff would much rather be doing usual duties than exceptional ones, I know few people who thrive on conflict or aggression but I do understand that we all have a tolerance threshold. Getting hot under the collar may make some feel better but it won't improve a poor situation.
As far as swearing goes I have to say that there is swearing and swearing. What is swearing? Well in my opinion it is not the 'C' word or the 'F' word although when I was a lad both they and the 'B' word were most definitely swearwords. These days the 'F' word is used in everyday language as a verb and as a adjective as well as an expletive. The 'C' word has been going that way for many years and to me they are no worse than my very own 'beeper sentex' or someone else's 'fiddlesticks' or another's 'damn and blast'.
From a public order standpoint I don't think swearing in the traditional sense is a factor as much as the manner of delivery of any comment. Having said that I was brought up not to swear and though I would use so called swearwords in normal conversation I would not use such language in conversation with any form of official, or indeed my family, and generally not outside my clique of friends and workmates. As far as the Police are concerned I have no doubt that they are just like the rest of us, they probably swear amongst themselves but not when in execution of duty so refraining from using traditional swearwords is simply a respect issue. Many people these days seem top have lost respect, I think a lot of it vanished with orderly behaviour such as queuing and waiting one's turn!
What is an offence? These days it can be just about anything a police officer wants it to be. I'm sure that they are specifically trained to draw a reaction from a suspect (what's a suspect?... erm these days that's everybody!) which will lead to at least a warning for something. It is best never to be drawn, to be polite at all times (even though you may feel differently) and to be compliant and not argumentative. Having such a demeanor and attitude with all officials is a plus point though we all find it difficult at times.
Dean Sullivan is one of the most respected bus operators in the industry and known for the pride he takes in his work. I think being present at the sharp end himself and his willingness to experience what his staff experience is testament to that.
Finally, having been involved in rail replacement myself and particularly in the Acton and Northfields area I do understand the frustrations but from a different viewpoint. Working in a downpour rerailing on a Saturday night/Sunday shift is graft and the last thing one wants is a road full of rail replacement buses gumming up the works when all one wants to do is drive home to bed on Sunday morning but that is exactly what happens at Acton Town! Fortunately I don't have such problems since I retired and moved out of London.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 8:08:01 GMT
After living in Kent in the middle of no-where I became used to the weekly rail suspension work, tho I have been caught out myself (station manned 3hrs a day in the week, but not weekends), but I have always found that taking my earphones out when I get off the train and listen to what the staff are shouting out. SouthEastern seemed to have it well sorted out with staff even laughing and joking with passangers.
In London where stations play announcements and have posters up there is little excuse but I do feel this is where LUL shoots itself in the foot. The PA system should never been used to tell people the system is running ok, this is what we expect. Keep it too announcements over coming closurses or problems with lines. The white computer screens work well on informing customers as to service levels (ie at Stratford where I use the Jubilee I get to see two of them). I do feel however that the little engineering booklets should be more widely available for people to pick up while they they go through the station. Stratford for example didnt seem (personal experience from using both gatelines twice a day) to have any booklets let there was one pile of them at West Ham on the Jubilee side of the station. As The Jubilee was suspended majorly on Good Friday I think it wasn't helpful to not have booklets at Stratford. Its very easy to pick up the booklet for reading once your on the Tube.
As for the DLR buses, well on my way to the station I pass where all the rail replacement buses for Stratford park. There was no less than five buses there yesterday at one point. All have a destination board in the front and all had a station list at the side making it clear that they were all stations service between Stratford and Canary Wharf. Most of them also had DLR rail replacement blinds. Perfect example of how to do rail replacement, make it clear, make it simple and people won't have so many problems!
As for violence and abuse towards staff, whats the point? Anyone doing it should be banned from TfL services for some time to reinforce the point that staff are there to help, not to vent at (well not in a negitive way).
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Post by londonboy on Mar 25, 2008 12:26:59 GMT
I think the Announcements about engineering works are a waste of time. There are so many P.A messages going out nowadays, that no one really takes any notice of them
Service Updates Security announcement and on the Northern Line Stations "the next train to XX will arrive in 2 Min's next station XX" when the train is approaching "the train now approaching is to XX please stand back from the platform edge"
on our platforms in the peak the announcements are non stop and people seem to switch off and not bother listening
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Post by glasgowdriver on Mar 25, 2008 14:52:02 GMT
i totally agree with ss stig and colin on this one i am getting fed up time and time again of people not planning there journey when using tube bus dlr or any form of transport people just expect the tube lines to be running the minute they step foot out of there door i am sorry but there is such a thing called JOURNEY PLANNER that you can use to PLAN YOUR JOURNEY believe it or not weeks in advance and it does actually tell you of PLANNED ENGINEERING WORK so before you go off shouting and swearing at staff check your journey first and then think twice about swearing at someone whilst i totally agree with SS STIG if you swear at someone then i think it should be dealt with the BTP as its verbal assualt you wouldnt walk up to someone in the street start swearing at them incase they turned against you so dont take it out on staff who you know are not gonna shout back or lay a finger on you because then the staff get into trouble because there wearing a uniform i think it should be dealt with totally aswell and back anyone on this who is standing up to you for your stupid mistake!!! *Catches breath* Are fullstops & sentences too much to ask for!? What many people in customer service roles don't understand, is that the general public see someone in uniform who works in transport as a way of venting their anger. This may have nothing to do with the issue in hand most of the time, but we are there and they can't help but let it all out. Someone in a customer service role should always let the person vent their anger. Interrupting and instigating only ever makes it worse. You'll also find that 99.9% of the time, the person will apologise and feel like a right pillock when the have finished. I think you are completely wrong about it being their "stupid mistake". You seem to forget that the vast majority of the general public are quite oblivious to what goes on in the real world behind closed doors, and engineering works can mean absolutely nothing to them, no matter how far in advance they were planned. Don't forget, if the general public did know every little piece of information about closures, problems & ways of solving them, ticketing etc etc, people in customer service would be redundant, as they wouldn't be needed. If you have to put up with someone swearing/shouting at you for only just 5 minutes a week, think about those who have genuinely been thankful for your help, and how they are keeping you in a job. This is how I get through my day. Fair point dave but it only takes that person to shout at you that spoils your whole shift no matter how much you try to explain that lines close because they need upgrading work done to stop them from breaking down and to make it a safre journey. Passengers just do not seem to understand this is why we need to close lines down at the end of the day its to give the passengers a smoother and more comfortable ride without things breaking down. And may i just add a passenger saying sorry they were wrong!! that will be the day i have lost count the amount of times a passenger has stood there and said "sorry my mistake i was wrong" lol when that does happen if it ever does i think i will collapse on the floor the only thing i hear is "the customer is always right" even when there wrong!
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,311
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Post by Colin on Mar 25, 2008 15:54:52 GMT
Sorry in advance, but there's a number of points I wanted to pick up on............ What many people in customer service roles don't understand, is that the general public see someone in uniform who works in transport as a way of venting their anger. This may have nothing to do with the issue in hand most of the time, but we are there and they can't help but let it all out. I think you'll find most people working in a customer service type role do understand that they are are a target when in uniform. It still doesn't make it right or acceptable. Someone in a customer service role should always let the person vent their anger. Really? I find that an interesting comment! Interrupting and instigating only ever makes it worse. Whilst I agree that winding an angry person up isn't the way to go, surely the best thing to do is resolve the problem rather than letting it develop into a bigger one; if the situation is allowed to continue, with the angry person getting angrier, things could turn very nasty! If you have to put up with someone swearing/shouting at you for only just 5 minutes a week, think about those who have genuinely been thankful for your help, and how they are keeping you in a job. This is how I get through my day. You obviously think bad behaviour is acceptable - personally, I don't consider 5 minutes a week to be acceptable........it should be zero tolerance. Getting hot under the collar may make some feel better but it won't improve a poor situation. Quite true... As far as swearing goes I have to say that there is swearing and swearing. What is swearing? Well in my opinion it is not the 'C' word or the 'F' word although when I was a lad both they and the 'B' word were most definitely swearwords. These days the 'F' word is used in everyday language as a verb and as a adjective as well as an expletive. The 'C' word has been going that way for many years and to me they are no worse than my very own 'beeper sentex' or someone else's 'fiddlesticks' or another's 'damn and blast'. In the context of this thread, I believe swearing is used to intimidate as well as reinforce/provoke a negative situation. What is an offence? These days it can be just about anything a police officer wants it to be. I'm sure that they are specifically trained to draw a reaction from a suspect (what's a suspect?... erm these days that's everybody!) which will lead to at least a warning for something. It is best never to be drawn, to be polite at all times (even though you may feel differently) and to be compliant and not argumentative. Having such a demeanor and attitude with all officials is a plus point though we all find it difficult at times. An offence of assault is committed if one persons actions cause another to feel threatened. Swearing at a staff member, whether it be a LUL member of staff, a bus driver, the woman on the counter in your local Tesco's or whoever; it's an assault. If a Police officer were to become involved in an assault incident, they would not deal with it by making it into whatever they wanted - they would ask the victim if they felt threatened and whether they would like to pursue the matter. They would then get the victim to tell the perpetrator, in their presence, what happened and how they felt........then the Police officer will deal with the incident appropriately once the appropriate offence has been established. In London where stations play announcements and have posters up there is little excuse but I do feel this is where LUL shoots itself in the foot. The PA system should never been used to tell people the system is running ok, this is what we expect. Trouble is, our customers have demanded more information - they do want to know how the service is on other lines and do want to be kept up date as their journey progresses. The white computer screens work well on informing customers as to service levels (ie at Stratford where I use the Jubilee I get to see two of them). Yes they do, but they're only good whilst you see them - once you've entered the network, the 'service update' PA's take over. I do feel however that the little engineering booklets should be more widely available for people to pick up while they they go through the station. Stratford for example didnt seem (personal experience from using both gatelines twice a day) to have any booklets let there was one pile of them at West Ham on the Jubilee side of the station. As The Jubilee was suspended majorly on Good Friday I think it wasn't helpful to not have booklets at Stratford. Its very easy to pick up the booklet for reading once your on the Tube. Trouble with those leaflets is that they do cost money to produce - people don't want a rise in the price of tickets, so this sort of thing has to be managed...........I agree though that it's a bit poor that Stratford seemed to be lacking in these, but I would assume there must have been a reason why West Ham was targeted. I think the Announcements about engineering works are a waste of time. There are so many P.A messages going out nowadays, that no one really takes any notice of them Service Updates Security announcement and on the Northern Line Stations "the next train to XX will arrive in 2 Min's next station XX" when the train is approaching "the train now approaching is to XX please stand back from the platform edge" on our platforms in the peak the announcements are non stop and people seem to switch off and not bother listening We do seem to have information overload with regard to station PA's - as I said before, customers want the 'service update' announcements. Customers also want to know where the next train is - they don't seem to trust the dot matrix boards.... BTP want the security announcements made - and of course Oyster is priority number one I can see both sides to this, I fully appreciate why the messages go out - but I do think better management of them would go a long long way to making a positive difference.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 21:00:19 GMT
West Ham was targeted because the Jubilee was shut on one of the days. When theres no work on the Jubilee West Ham never gets the booklets. Even when theres a local closure on the District/H&C. Tho Im using Easter as an example where there was major DLR work from the station as well as the Jubilee and yet still no information. But I will say that its possible that the staff put out a set amount and by the time I get there they have all gone.
Actually I never thought about the PA announcements once in the system to be honest. I tend to listen to my iPod (at a reasonable level, I even lower the volume when the train stops so as not to annoy other pax) or am chatting with a mate so I never get to hear them. The rare times Ive travelled on my own Ive completely blanked the PA after the first couple.
As for customers asking for more information, I suppose LUL can't win. People want more information yet they don't want to listen to the only ways you can communicate this (ie PAs, boards, booklets). I have found that some of the information given can be misleading from a customer point of view. While doing a course at East Ham I have had this. A signal failure at Plaistow was causing severe delays for the District across the line. Yet once on the platform the train came quickly. I noted on the way to West Ham that trains in the oppisite direction were running as normal. I think the terms need work and yes I understand some parts of the line might have a problem but others seem fine with this changing.
Don't think this problem of information can ever be perfect but more whats accepted to most people. I still can't understand why people seem to be violently rude to staff when there engineering work. This stuff is planned and its easy to find out whats going on. TfL/LUL make efforts to get this across.
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