metman
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Post by metman on Nov 28, 2007 14:10:07 GMT
Quick question-as the replacement buses run to Rayners Lane how many trains are going to run on the 1/2 Dec between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge? Regards Metman
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Post by Tubeboy on Nov 28, 2007 16:15:34 GMT
There will be 6tph between Rayners and Uxbridge.
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Post by happybunny on Nov 28, 2007 16:41:53 GMT
If you are lucky
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 28, 2007 16:46:06 GMT
All trains will run thru to Uxbridge then!
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Post by c5 on Nov 28, 2007 17:01:49 GMT
All trains will run thru to Uxbridge then! ;D ;D ;D ;D On the Picc! (Is it Christmas!) Shame it's not an Acton - Uxbridge shuttle, that might just work!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2007 22:58:58 GMT
if i am at rayners during one these weekends i'll pop into the bookies beforehand and wager i get asked to at least turn one at a ruislip if not rayners!
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Post by superteacher on Nov 28, 2007 23:01:25 GMT
All trains will run thru to Uxbridge then! Will believe that when I see it! Can imagine the Picc controllers doing their normal abuse of Uxbridge services in the name of punctuality, and then forgetting that there is no Met!
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 29, 2007 0:43:18 GMT
Yeah, I'm sure there will be some Ruislip tip outs!! The buses look like a better option this weekend!!! 114/U1 all the way!
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Post by superteacher on Dec 2, 2007 16:53:28 GMT
Yeah, I'm sure there will be some Ruislip tip outs!! The buses look like a better option this weekend!!! 114/U1 all the way! Saturday afternoon - there was a 20 minute gap on the westbound at Rayners Lane, then the next Picc train that arrives tipped out at Rayners! There were then 3 Uxbridge trains in the next 10 minutes, wonder if one of them got "Ruisliped"?
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Post by c5 on Dec 2, 2007 17:03:25 GMT
Yeah, I'm sure there will be some Ruislip tip outs!! The buses look like a better option this weekend!!! 114/U1 all the way! Saturday afternoon - there was a 20 minute gap on the westbound at Rayners Lane, then the next Picc train that arrives tipped out at Rayners! There were then 3 Uxbridge trains in the next 10 minutes, wonder if one of them got "Ruisliped"? An Uxbridge to Acton shuttle every 10-15 minutes would be much more reliable. The more trains sent to the east end of the line, the more that come back late!
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Post by superteacher on Dec 2, 2007 17:19:30 GMT
Saturday afternoon - there was a 20 minute gap on the westbound at Rayners Lane, then the next Picc train that arrives tipped out at Rayners! There were then 3 Uxbridge trains in the next 10 minutes, wonder if one of them got "Ruisliped"? An Uxbridge to Acton shuttle every 10-15 minutes would be much more reliable. The more trains sent to the east end of the line, the more that come back late! And it's made even worse by the priority being given to keeping the Heathrow services going!
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Post by c5 on Dec 2, 2007 17:23:00 GMT
An Uxbridge to Acton shuttle every 10-15 minutes would be much more reliable. The more trains sent to the east end of the line, the more that come back late! And it's made even worse by the priority being given to keeping the Heathrow services going! Wait till T5 opens proper in March! ;D ;D ;D ;D You'll get a slight taster from January 13th!
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 2, 2007 18:27:37 GMT
There should be fines for tubelines if they can't maintain a reliable service to Rayners Lane/Uxbridge, maybe that will make them do something. People pay their money to travel, they deserve a half decent service! If it all gets too much they could make the branch into a tramway? Acton to Harrow via Rayners Lane. The tram could run from Acton Town along the current picc route from Park Royal to South Harrow then branch off onto the streets at Rayners Lane- run down Imperial Drive and on to Harrow?
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 2, 2007 19:51:57 GMT
I'm not sure what 'troubles with the Picc line' JTD is referring to. Obviously Tube Lines are responsible for reliability and availability of trains and the state of the signalling system. However, if train stock was fully available and the signalling and communications integrity was 100% for 100% of the time there is no guarantee at all that the Picc line would run to time.
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Post by DrOne on Dec 3, 2007 22:23:39 GMT
The more trains sent to the east end of the line, the more that come back late! Why? Would someone mind explaining this please? What is it about the Picc that makes reliability so difficult?
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Post by superteacher on Dec 3, 2007 22:34:10 GMT
The more trains sent to the east end of the line, the more that come back late! Why? Would someone mind explaining this please? What is it about the Picc that makes reliability so difficult? There are few places to reverse trains at the east end of the Picc. Apart from the 3 platforms at Cockfosters, there is Arnos Grove and Wood Green. Problem with Wood Green is that being a central reversing siding, the time taken to detrain and then proceed (slowly) into the sidning delays the next train(s). Also, the line has only two crew depots (Acton Town and Arnos Grove), and queues of trains often form approaching these points, as one late crew change can delay the whole service.
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 3, 2007 22:34:36 GMT
Indeed, nothing is ever 100%. Should some of the 83ts been used on the Picc?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 22:41:54 GMT
Why? Would someone mind explaining this please? What is it about the Picc that makes reliability so difficult? There are few places to reverse trains at the east end of the Picc. Apart from the 3 platforms at Cockfosters, there is Arnos Grove and Wood Green. Problem with Wood Green is that being a central reversing siding, the time taken to detrain and then proceed (slowly) into the sidning delays the next train(s). Also, the line has only two crew depots (Acton Town and Arnos Grove), and queues of trains often form approaching these points, as one late crew change can delay the whole service. Indeed. In my opinion the best way to fix the Picc is to restore York Road station and turn it into a four-platform through station, with the central original platforms used for reversing services from central London. Most of the traffic on the Picc departs at KX anyway, and the presence of the NR stations and Eurostar will only increase the amount of traffic moving on and off the Picc.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 3, 2007 22:44:12 GMT
Indeed, nothing is ever 100%. Should some of the 83ts been used on the Picc? Don't think it would have made much difference to the service, unless they build more reversing points - whatever happened to the 3rd platform at Oakwood proposal. or a reversing sidiing at York Road disused station. They need to be able to reverse trains without delaying the service, something which is currently very difficult at the east end of the Picc. They might also consider opening up a crew depot at Cockfosters, so as to reduce the number of crew reliefs at Arnos.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 3, 2007 22:47:26 GMT
In my opinion the best way to fix the Picc is to restore York Road station and turn it into a four-platform through station, with the central original platforms used for reversing services from central London. Most of the traffic on the Picc departs at KX anyway, and the presence of the NR stations and Eurostar will only increase the amount of traffic moving on and off the Picc. That isn't such a daft idea as it sounds on first reading. Provided you've got a fairly open chequebook/sources of public funding/heads of private finance (that you can squeeze the money out of) it is an absolutely capital idea - and would go a reasonable way to sorting out most of the Picc's capacity problems. <hmmm, thinks ;D>
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Post by superteacher on Dec 3, 2007 22:52:20 GMT
Perhaps when the line is upgraded and resignalled with ATO, some of the schemes mentioned in this thread may be on the agenda. After all, it would be a phenominal waste of money to re-equip the line with new signalling and trains and not deal with the capacity problems.
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 3, 2007 23:11:51 GMT
I never understood why the train crew depots were relocated away from the rolling stock depots. That didn't make sense really and must've added to the problems of running a service.
If the crews booked on at the rolling stock depots then surely the depots would be the best places to reverse trains and would enable faster reversing. In theory a reversing train could simply detrain its passengers and run straight into the depot with a fresh train leaving the depot almost simultaneously. Of course having two trains with the same number so close in time would be difficult for the east end computers to handle but there are ways around that. Bringing back spare train crew would probably help coupled with more flexible normal working arrangements.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 3, 2007 23:15:12 GMT
Having only 2 crew depots is also a big issue. The Central line increased recently from 4 to 5 crew depots.
How many did the Picc have in its heyday, and where were they?
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Post by c5 on Dec 4, 2007 0:40:55 GMT
Moving Arnos depot back to Cockfosters would probably improve things A LOT!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 4, 2007 1:19:03 GMT
Having only 2 crew depots is also a big issue. The Central line increased recently from 4 to 5 crew depots. How many did the Picc have in its heyday, and where were they? Oakwood,Arnos,Wood Green,Acton,Norhfields,South Harrow & was there a small depot at Uxbridge?
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 4, 2007 7:35:24 GMT
Picc Crew Depots: There was never a Picc depot at Uxbridge, only a Met one. We used to spend the night there sometimes, taking down the staff train in the evening and another out in the morning. Picc sleet turns used to stop there overnight too. We only got 2 hours there - hardly enough for a decent kip!
The whole question of crew depots has got into a mess. Cutting back on them was a mistake. Having them at sidings is useful but not the whole answer. And, the original ones were not always in the right place. Camden Town was not a good place to change crews.
In an ideal world, the train depots and crew depots will be at the end of the line. Uxbridge, High Barnet, Morden, Upminster and Cockfosters are ideal. There you can reform the service, stable trains, arrange changeovers and swap crews easily. Moving the Vic depot to Brixton should help reformation.
Changing crews en route is not a good idea unless you have room to stick a train in a siding or additional platform. Acton and Arnos are examples of large depots where the slightest delay is multiplied exponentially by crew relief problems. I recall that some years ago a study into delays on the Picc showed that after a delay of a half hour or so had been cleared, the service actually got worse and worse throughout the rest of the day until EoT. It was always like this - even when I worked on the line in the 60s. You would have thought that modern information systems would have made things better.
Of course, you must decide how to manage the service - who does reformations, the controller or the DMT; how is information on late running linked to crew reliefs; how does the office know when a late relief is coming? This sort of stuff needs a good information network and then skilled management to make it work.
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 4, 2007 7:51:29 GMT
Picc Reversing:-
The York Road reversing siding was considered years ago. Trouble is, unless you spend a heap of money on extra platforms, building a siding and tipping out at KX just moves the Wood Green delay problem south.
Perhaps we should be looking at a "rapid turnround" proposal? Fix the point locks for selected sidings to allow passengers to be carried over them and fit secure inter-car barriers to prevent the Liverpool St problem. Then you can get rid of train checking. With the new ATO, the slow run in to dead ends should be reduced, shouldn't it? [signal engineers please confirm]
Announce the terminating station as usual, anyone who doesn't get off gets turned round with the train. The inconvenience for a few who don't pay attention will be more than rewarded by the improvement in service management. I would try Wood Green as an experiment.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 4, 2007 8:54:31 GMT
There should be fines for tubelines if they can't maintain a reliable service to Rayners Lane/Uxbridge, maybe that will make them do something. That's all well & good, but it's actually the line controllers & duty manager trains that manage the day to day service - ie, LUL! Having only 2 crew depots is also a big issue. The Central line increased recently from 4 to 5 crew depots. Whilst having more depots can increase flexibillity, it can also hinder service recovery after a shutdown as certain trains must go to certain places for relief. In an ideal world, the train depots and crew depots will be at the end of the line. Uxbridge, High Barnet, Morden, Upminster and Cockfosters are ideal. We've been there before on this subject: www.districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=jubilee&thread=1192823612&page=1Replies 4 & 5 are the relevant one's.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 10:10:42 GMT
Picc Reversing:-Perhaps we should be looking at a "rapid turnround" proposal? Fix the point locks for selected sidings to allow passengers to be carried over them and fit secure inter-car barriers to prevent the Liverpool St problem. Then you can get rid of train checking. I'm not sure I would want to be the driver having to change ends in a siding, having to get past a load of pi$$ed off passengers who failed to listen and are now going to have spend a fascinating 10 minutes in a tunnel waiting to go back to where they just came from!
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Post by happybunny on Dec 4, 2007 14:08:46 GMT
I remember when I used to work at EAB and they turned the Connects there during engineering.... customer didn't listen then customer stayed on train .. so many times you saw the customer disappear to the works siding then re-appear on platform 3 5 mins later
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