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Post by Dmitri on Dec 4, 2007 16:21:29 GMT
so many times you saw the customer disappear to the works siding ...never to be seen again... ;D
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 4, 2007 19:44:19 GMT
Picc Crew Depots:There was never a Picc depot at Uxbridge, only a Met one. We used to spend the night there sometimes, taking down the staff train in the evening and another out in the morning. Picc sleet turns used to stop there overnight too. We only got 2 hours there - hardly enough for a decent kip! The whole question of crew depots has got into a mess. Cutting back on them was a mistake. Having them at sidings is useful but not the whole answer. And, the original ones were not always in the right place. Camden Town was not a good place to change crews. In an ideal world, the train depots and crew depots will be at the end of the line. Uxbridge, High Barnet, Morden, Upminster and Cockfosters are ideal. There you can reform the service, stable trains, arrange changeovers and swap crews easily. Moving the Vic depot to Brixton should help reformation. Changing crews en route is not a good idea unless you have room to stick a train in a siding or additional platform. Acton and Arnos are examples of large depots where the slightest delay is multiplied exponentially by crew relief problems. I recall that some years ago a study into delays on the Picc showed that after a delay of a half hour or so had been cleared, the service actually got worse and worse throughout the rest of the day until EoT. It was always like this - even when I worked on the line in the 60s. You would have thought that modern information systems would have made things better. Of course, you must decide how to manage the service - who does reformations, the controller or the DMT; how is information on late running linked to crew reliefs; how does the office know when a late relief is coming? This sort of stuff needs a good information network and then skilled management to make it work. Were all the Picc trains at Uxbridge night turns?I'm sure there used to be either 4 or 6 trains stabled there in the 60's & 70's.
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 5, 2007 2:43:27 GMT
Were all the Picc trains at Uxbridge night turns?I'm sure there used to be either 4 or 6 trains stabled there in the 60's & 70's. I also recall Piccs being stabled at Uxbridge in the early 1960s.
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Post by DrOne on Dec 5, 2007 10:30:29 GMT
Thanks for all the informative replies BUT it seems I'm still not quite getting it. Why can't a 3-platform terminus such as Cockfosters provide sufficient turnaround capacity (if not more) for the Picc's current service level? How many trains are turned at 3-platform termini such as Morden and Stratford? How about the 2 platforms at Elephant & Castle? Is this where the location of crew depot comes into play? Sorry if I'm being a bit clueless
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 5, 2007 11:03:01 GMT
There is also Arnos Grove with 3 platforms a few stops away, which gives the picc its own North Greenwich effectively! The crew depot should be at Cockfosters by the sound of it!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 5, 2007 18:21:06 GMT
Thanks for all the informative replies BUT it seems I'm still not quite getting it. Why can't a 3-platform terminus such as Cockfosters provide sufficient turnaround capacity (if not more) for the Picc's current service level? How many trains are turned at 3-platform termini such as Morden and Stratford? How about the 2 platforms at Elephant & Castle? Is this where the location of crew depot comes into play? Sorry if I'm being a bit clueless Location of crew depots are not relevant in relation to terminal turnaround capacity; Signalling & track layouts are the main components. I believe, though would happily stand corrected, that the likes of Elephant & Castle or Brixton, with their two platform terminus's work well because they use stepping back - the procedure where the driver of an arriving train leaves the now rear cab and a new driver gets in the now leading cab and takes the train straight back out. The driver that just got off will now walk up to the what will be the leading end of the next train, and takes that out soon after it arrives.........and so the process repeats.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2007 18:41:00 GMT
Elephant and Castle is the only Yerkes terminus still being used - hence the proposal for the Camberwell extension for a three platform terminus. As a compromise they built the overrun tunnels that would have lead to Camberwell as siding to put trains away.
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 5, 2007 18:56:20 GMT
Stepping back is used at Brixton and Walthamstow?
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Post by setttt on Dec 5, 2007 21:40:49 GMT
Stepping back is used at Brixton and Walthamstow? Only Brixton, not Walthamstow.
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Post by DrOne on Dec 5, 2007 23:55:52 GMT
Ok so it's signalling and track layouts which affect the Piccadilly. As both have 3-track termini, is it essentially signaling capacity which restricts Arnos-Cockfosters to 18tph but permits Kennington-Morden to run 30tph?
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 6, 2007 1:11:37 GMT
I'm no expert on the Picc but, what service patterns are run these days? I heard in the past it was Rayners-Arnos Gv and Heathrow-Cockfosters. I know that has changed-also when do the Rayners-Acton trains kick in?
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 6, 2007 2:16:47 GMT
Elephant and Castle is the only Yerkes terminus still being used - hence the proposal for the Camberwell extension for a three platform terminus. As a compromise they built the overrun tunnels that would have lead to Camberwell as siding to put trains away. Back in 1928 with stepping back the Bakerloo operated 30 trains per hour in the peak at Elephant & Castle
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 6, 2007 4:27:28 GMT
Back in 1928 with stepping back the Bakerloo operated 30 trains per hour in the peak at Elephant & Castle And (also) in 1953 managed to have departures every 1.5 [1]minutes - granted that was after the resignalling in 1941. [1] when the incoming trains were there to depart! (if you see what I mean)
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 6, 2007 4:35:45 GMT
Elephant and Castle is the only Yerkes terminus still being used - hence the proposal for the Camberwell extension for a three platform terminus. As a compromise they built the overrun tunnels that would have lead to Camberwell as siding to put trains away. So (at Heffalump) the 398' (SB) and 438' (NB) off the platform ends was added after building?
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 6, 2007 4:48:44 GMT
And (also) in 1953 managed to have departures every 1.5 [1]minutes - granted that was after the resignalling in 1941. [1] when the incoming trains were there to depart! (if you see what I mean) In 1928 the theoretical maximum tph on the District was 48. Between South Kensington and Mansion House 42 tph was achieved in practise.
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Post by c5 on Dec 6, 2007 4:55:49 GMT
I'm no expert on the Picc but, what service patterns are run these days? I heard in the past it was Rayners-Arnos Gv and Heathrow-Cockfosters. I know that has changed-also when do the Rayners-Acton trains kick in? Off peak it is Uxbridge - Cockfosters - 20 mins Rayners - Cockfosters - 20 mins Heathrow - Cockfosters - 5 mins Northfields - Arnos Grove - 20 mins In the peak the service is Rayners/Ruislip/Uxbridge every 5 mins Heathrow every 5 mins and the trains heading east terminate at Arnos, Oakwood and Cockfosters. DrOne, You also have to factor in how many trains there are available and other junctions, like Acton and speed restrictions.
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