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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 1:10:47 GMT
Hi all,
Can anyone shed some light on as to why the Picc does not go to Ealing Broadway?
It seems like it could be useful, as the only ways of getting trains to do a quick turnaround back onto the east, is to de-train and go in to the various reverse sidings at Acton or Northfields, which keeps the platforms engaged until the moves are complete, which can take a while and it is ultimately a killer to the line if something goes wrong.
At least by using Ealing Broadway you have extra services from/to Central London, and turnarounds would be quicker and less disruptive.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 5, 2007 1:33:17 GMT
Well for starters, the drivers aren't road trained - so that's a particularly major obstacle.
Whilst it may save time with regard to de-training, the saved time would be lost because extra PA's would be required. Then add time for people coming up to the cab with questions. You'd also tie up the junctions at Hanger Lane & Ealing Broadway because of the extra trains.
As has been mentioned countless times before, there's the rumour that the Picc may get Ealing with the District taking the Rayners branch. IMHO this would be the ideal solution - but then what do I know?
So as things stand at the moment, I think your suggestion would create as many problems as it would solve - but who knows what may happen in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 1:49:34 GMT
Sorry, I don't mean, if say tomorrow it was decided to send 4 random trains an hour down to Ealing Broadway without warning. I mean, thought out and scheduled, with the train destinations & DVA's set to Ealing Broadway, and space made for these extra trains. I also think the idea about giving the District the Rayners branch would be best as when T5 opens especially, the Uxbridge branch will probably have to lose out more! But I would of thought it would make more sense to share Ealing Broadway, although the Picc being the primary user?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 18:23:35 GMT
It would also make sense for the District to get the Rayners branch, especially with the introduction of S stock, along with ATO.
You would then have the option in times of disruption on the Met (if drivers are road trained) for trains to be run down the branch through Acton.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jul 5, 2007 22:40:00 GMT
Hmm - with T5 I agree that Rayners will lose out even more than it does at present, however wouldn't Ealing Broadway lose out equally? (if drivers are road trained) What with everything being done for profit by private companies, I'd imagine they would not want to do this as it would mean spending extra money on training drivers.
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Post by c5 on Jul 5, 2007 22:41:12 GMT
Hmm - with T5 I agree that Rayners will lose out even more than it does at present, however wouldn't Ealing Broadway lose out equally? (if drivers are road trained) What with everything being done for profit by private companies, I'd imagine they would not want to do this as it would mean spending extra money on training drivers. LUL as the Operator would bear the cost for training their Train Operators. You still have a point though Tom.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 22:42:06 GMT
Picc 73's have space on the DVA for E Bdy, code 73, so I believe...
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 5, 2007 23:24:29 GMT
Very easy to say this, but IMHO the whole section and branches between Turnham Green and where the central goes near Park Royal isnt ideal for the services to be provided in future. Youre missing important interchanges at Chiswick Park and at Park Royal West, the lines have the wrong branches; not much capacity for turning trains short or diverting them, four tracks but going in the wrong direction eventually...
A big headache.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 13, 2007 9:27:52 GMT
Just spotted on the real-time travel disruption map:
PICCADILLY LINE: Minor delays are occurring on the Ealing Broadway branch only due to a signal failure at Ealing Common
Message received: 13/07/2007 10:21:
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 29, 2007 22:37:02 GMT
What sort of frequency will the Picc expect to run with T5/T4 and Rayners lane branches? I would expect T5 to get a train every 3-4 minutes and a train to T4 and Rayners Lane every 10 minutes? The District does not need the added problems of an extra journey on the Rayners Lane branch. Imagine Upminster to Rayners Lane/Uxbridge!! LU should just suck it up and work out a way to serve Rayners Lane/T5 and T4. The other option is to convert the Rayners Lane to Acton section to a tramway!
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Post by c5 on Oct 29, 2007 22:44:09 GMT
What sort of frequency will the Picc expect to run with T5/T4 and Rayners lane branches? I would expect T5 to get a train every 3-4 minutes and a train to T4 and Rayners Lane every 10 minutes? The District does not need the added problems of an extra journey on the Rayners Lane branch. Imagine Upminster to Rayners Lane/Uxbridge!! LU should just suck it up and work out a way to serve Rayners Lane/T5 and T4. The other option is to convert the Rayners Lane to Acton section to a tramway! The only change will be: Every 10 mins to Heathrow T5 via Heathrow T123 and every 10 mins to Heathrow T4, with a "booked" stand time of about 7 mins until it continues to Heathrow T123. It will certainly be "interesting", and the Station Staff at Acton better get ready to stand on the platforms to tell the signal operators the train numbers ;D ;D I believe that the extra Rayner's branch Peak trains and the Northfields-Arnos "Locals" will still run.
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 30, 2007 0:01:33 GMT
While everyone is batting funny ideas around I've not yet heard anyone suggest Rayners Lane to Edgware Road which might be more useful if the District were to take over North Ealing to South Harrow.
Brian
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Post by DrOne on Oct 30, 2007 10:24:24 GMT
While everyone is batting funny ideas around I've not yet heard anyone suggest Rayners Lane to Edgware Road which might be more useful if the District were to take over North Ealing to South Harrow. Brian Sounds like a good plan as long as that route possible at Earl's Court? It might also need a few other services to be swapped around: Rayners Lane - Edgware Rd All Wimbledons - Upminster Richmond - Mansion/Tower/Whitechapel/Barking?? Ealing Broadway - Piccadilly (less people to p**s off when Heathrow grabs all the trains) Otherwise you'd have Circle + Hammersmith & City + Wimbleware + Raynersware (?) services all converging on Edgware Rd at the same time.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 30, 2007 16:12:07 GMT
what about Rayners to HSK/Edgware Road Wimbledon to Edgware Road / Upminster (as now) Richmond to Upminster / Tower Hill Olympia to Mansion House
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 30, 2007 16:37:49 GMT
While everyone is batting funny ideas around I've not yet heard anyone suggest Rayners Lane to Edgware Road which might be more useful if the District were to take over North Ealing to South Harrow. Brian Sounds like a good plan as long as that route possible at Earl's Court? It might also need a few other services to be swapped around: Rayners Lane - Edgware Rd All Wimbledons - Upminster Richmond - Mansion/Tower/Whitechapel/Barking?? Ealing Broadway - Piccadilly (less people to p**s off when Heathrow grabs all the trains) Otherwise you'd have Circle + Hammersmith & City + Wimbleware + Raynersware (?) services all converging on Edgware Rd at the same time. No problems with routing at Earl's Court. With regard to Edgware Road now here's a radical idea, run Wimbledon to Wimbledon via Edgware Road or Victoria alternately instead of the 'Circle' Line and separate District services. Reverse some services short at Parsons Green or Putney Bridge. Then perhaps run a shuttle or two between Mansion House and High St. Ken That should clear the bottleneck at Edgware Road! Brian
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Oct 30, 2007 18:38:30 GMT
Wimbledon to Wimbledon via the Circle is one of the ideas being bandied about for the revised SSL services post upgrade.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 30, 2007 19:58:19 GMT
what about Rayners to HSK/Edgware Road Wimbledon to Edgware Road / Upminster (as now) Richmond to Upminster / Tower Hill Olympia to Mansion House
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 30, 2007 21:50:51 GMT
Didnt someone flesh out a draft frequency for a set of proposed services on one of the lines' boards? Fascinating subject though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 21:53:43 GMT
what about Rayners to HSK/Edgware Road Wimbledon to Edgware Road / Upminster (as now) Richmond to Upminster / Tower Hill Olympia to Mansion House That's much more doable - all of the services (except the last one) pass at least one depot or crewing point. COLIN once said that the current service pattern on the District is designed with the above requirement in mind.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 30, 2007 23:25:20 GMT
Indeed - during in the off peak at least anyway - peak times are another matter.
It is generally desirable to have a train passing a depot during it's journey in case it needs a defect sorting, changeover with a fresh train, etc.
The idea is that Wimbledon D stocks can be changed over at Upminster, as can Richmond trains, whilst Ealing Broadway's can be changed over at Ealing Common. The two Olympia trains can swap with an Ealing, and be changed over that way, whilst the C stocks can be swapped at Edgware Road with a Hammersmith bound H&C.
If you were to have a Richmond - Tower hill service, for example, it'd make life harder if the train needed to go to a depot. It's not a can't do thing; it's just less desirable to have the timetable set up in that way.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 11:16:09 GMT
The Rayner's Lane/Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly is already not a very fast one, and I do sometimes see passengers going 'up' to Rayners Lane to get on a Metropolitan, because the Piccadilly takes quite a while to get into central London. Letting the District take over this line would mean even more stops that these people don't actually want to go to, and an even less attractive service into central London. Why does everyone seem to think this is a good idea?
Ealing Broadway on the other hand, has pretty great services already, and will be getting Crossrail to complement that. I don't see why it needs the Piccadilly.
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Post by happybunny on Nov 2, 2007 11:36:41 GMT
Here Here mister Sweek! And plus can you imagine ever having to do Uxbridge to Upminster.... arrrggghhhh I will end up chucking myself under an oncoming train!! Things would be fine if they just considered the Rayners branch more... the other day (Weds even) about 2030 I was waiting at Acton (off duty) there was 4 Heathrows and 3 Northfields before a Rayners. They just need to concentrate on the Rayners branch not just Heathrow. We are not asking for an amazing service, just 6 trains an hour would be nice, every ten minutes! If they could manage this then there would be no need to change things
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 2, 2007 12:48:52 GMT
At last-I think we can put this threat to bed! Does the District want/need an extra 5 odd miles to its journey? No, to run a good Metro service you need shorter routes not longer routes. The Picc should continue as it is and the planners should learn to live with it- thats what their paid to do!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 13:30:14 GMT
Why not combine the Uxbridge branch with the Edgware Road branch, just like what happened in 1990 when we got the Hammersmith & City line? Uxware line anyone?
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 2, 2007 13:39:24 GMT
To be fair the Hammersmith and City line has been in existance since the earliest days. The Hammersmith and City service has often been separate from the mail line service. From the days of its O stock it ran from Whitechapel/Barking to Hammersmith. The 1990 branding was an excuse to clear things up.
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 2, 2007 13:47:17 GMT
At last-I think we can put this threat to bed! Does the District want/need an extra 5 odd miles to its journey? No, to run a good Metro service you need shorter routes not longer routes. The Picc should continue as it is and the planners should learn to live with it- thats what their paid to do! Your point is valid but your conclusion doesn't match it! The Picc doesn't need the branch to Rayners or Uxbridge at all and might be better off without it. A better idea would be a separate shuttle service trundling back and forth from Acton
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 2, 2007 14:14:32 GMT
Are facilities available at Acton for regular reversals? A train every 10 minutes would be ok, shame South Acton is not around still-it would be the perfect bolt hole for Rayners lane trains! How busy will the Picc to Heathrow be after Xrail is built (its a long way off mind you!)?
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Nov 2, 2007 14:31:13 GMT
Acton Town still has I believe the middle reversing siding between the WB and EB fast Hounslow branch tracks. I am sure that I remember regular Acton reversers years ago, although I can regrettably also remember the Barons Court ones as well! And Wood Green!
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Post by metman on Nov 2, 2007 14:54:46 GMT
Are there still Bounds Grn reversers on the Picc? Barons Ct reversers? Didn't know there was a xover there (or is it combined with the Hammersmith siding at the West End?)! Must have been a pain!
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Post by c5 on Nov 2, 2007 15:14:04 GMT
The only way to reverse East to West at Acton is via the sidings at the East End or via Ealing Common depot, then re-appearing at Ealing Common platforms. West to East can be done by reversing off the WB Fast platform to the East Sidings or straight onto the West Siding, 26rd.
There are (off the top of me head), no booked Wood Green reversers, but its is used to short trip late running trains. No reversing at Bounds Green!
Hammersmith/Barons Court sidings are one of the same!
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