Plan to close all LUL ticket offices

I have just read the ES article and some of the comments posted. I have never in my life read so much c**p in my life. The reason the ticket offices are manned is the because LUL ticketing system is so complicated compared with others. Perhaps things are simpler now but at stations like Euston you would be busier some Saturday mornings than during the peak Mon-Fri. This was because you have a large number of visitors who may have never been to London before let alone travelled on the "Tube"

As for demanning stations ye gods that old chestnut. What about gated stations whose going to look after them.

As for who's leading the team a certain Mike Strzlecki. I am saying no more but God Forbid.

I find it strange for such an enormous cut to be done. It's suspicious.

Here in Oporto the Metro started to work with almost all stations unmanned, only having people on existing Andante stores around the city. In the last years the number of platforms have become manned with, at least, one security guard trained to help and inform passengers using the Metro besides their normal security duties.

Passengers also feel more safe this way and stations look always clean and in perfect shape, in complete contrast with commuter railway stations that have been unmanned over the years and the amount of acts of vandalism in these stations have increased seriously:



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The Beeb have published an article: All London Tube ticket offices to close, union claims

No matter how many ticket machines you put in, there are always massive queues for the ticket windows; there is no way they can justify closing them.

The Underground have always tried to reduce the most expensive grades to cut costs. The company plan got rid of Station Inspectors and Chief Booking Clerks. Later SS1's were cut by the introduction of control room assistants. Multifuctional supervisors lost there reason to exist when ticket offices were closed for most of the day and became glorified caretakers so it is no surprise they have become the most expensive grade apart from train drivers. Going back to the 60's and the opening of the Victoria Line this had the most expensive train drivers and station staff particularly in the ticket office which took a number of years to iron out.

I was one of the Multi functional Station Supervisors, firstly out on the north end of the Met then later in a Zone 1 station (yes there were a few) I quite agree with what revupminster says, I would like to add that under company plan a lot of very experienced Booking Office staff either left or took VS. This was at the time a major issue as the company lost a lot of money I believe.

I really don't think it is a reheat or the "silly season". Clearly someone has got hold of a document from the team doing the "business transformation". Clearly there is an option to close every ticket office - it's exactly what I would expect a team led by Mr Strzelecki to come up with. I agree with you that it is not a foregone conclusion that all of them will shut but my view is that if LU felt it could do it without massive political flak then it would. Let's face facts - the easy "efficiencies" have been done and now we're getting to the point where funding cuts for "day to day ops" will start to affect the service the passenger experiences. This inevitably means fewer jobs and less service with a shift towards new technology.

Other initiatives like moving more and more functionality plus "staff log on" to the ticket machines is a precursor to removing ticket offices. Getting people off Oyster and onto bank cards complete with "back room" processing (including incomplete jnys, refunds etc) is another stage. The revised TfL website, due soon, with the concept of "personal accounts" for all TfL business (tickets, CC, emission zone payments) is another one. I suspect there are other things going on which are not yet obvious but which remove complexity or simplify ticket products / processes.

The bigger problem for LU is how on earth do you sell long period tickets, handle refunds, damaged cards, set discounts on cards and deal with all the complexity and minutiae of the ticketing system without ticket offices. There are other things "blowing around" like ITSO cards working on LU plus the South East Flexible Ticketing project that will mean more types of smart tickets turning up on LU and people possibly requiring assistance.

Just having travel centres *in Zone 1* is daft because it forces people to travel to the most expensive and crowded bit of the network. If TfL were to apply some intelligence and how proper retail style travel centres across London then that might help shift the complex, time consuming transactions to those centres and out of ticket offices. It might also give TfL a better presence in some parts of London where the tube is non existent but people still use Oyster cards. However the average passenger is still going to find that approach less convenient than using a local station.

The only way a change on this scale can happen is if the Mayor can be persuaded and is willing to deal with the inevitable flak given he campaigned on a platform of not closing ticket offices in 2008 and reiterated this in 2010. Clearly his opponents have already turned his own words back on him. I'm not a betting man but I'd guess that a decent number of offices will close, more will have vastly reduced hours and there will be a trial of the Travel Centre concept in one area of London.

Tonight's Standard suggests removal of Station Supervisors is also proposed - this seems a step to far.

A lot of maintenance and fault response requires signing in/out and keys.

and also fire safety needs signing in or out - if absent of that means a safety risk

law requires staff be manned underground stations (not the aboveground stations - which can be unmanned for few hours or totally unmanned)

in newcastle - often metro stations have no ticket offices - they have travel centres or just tioket machines

This is probably going to be a controversial opinion...

Speaking personally, I would have no issues if LU shut all the ticket offices down... many of them are now open at hours that don't make sense and aren't useful, and with the advent of Contactless Card payments, in addition to Oyster, it's going to be easier to travel so there is even less need for them.

At big stations, and the NR termini in Central London it definitely makes sense to have something, though - mainly for those visiting London so they can get around.

What I'd be interested to see is the Cost Per Customer of keeping ticket offices open at smaller and less used stations - i.e:

Staff Cost
---------------------  = Cost Per Customer
Customer Number

and also the number of people that are using the ticket counter who could equally as well use the Self Service machines... as long as each station has one that takes notes/coins as well as card.

I think you are making an excellent point.  These decisions need to be evidence-based, but the right evidence has to be chosen...

Here's an annoying incident from a few months ago.   I had made a succession of mistakes (four) with my Oyster card involving entering and leaving a station without travelling and felt I was due a refund on sympathetic grounds (I had been trying to do the right thing but the system didn't think so - long story).  I phoned the helpline number from home and spoke to someone who looked at my Oyster account on line and agreed it was fair that I should have a refund, but they were only able to process the most recent instance for me.  For multiple refunds prior to the most recent, apparently, you have to turn up in person at a station, which is what I did and went through the whole process again and got my refunds. 
So that was a completely unnecessary visit to a ticket counter and either a waste of time for the ticket office or for the helpline, depending on your point of view.

I have noticed that some stations at some hours have a closed ticket office but also a member of staff standing in the ticket hall ready to help people so it would also be useful to see some statistics covering what the actual manning levels of stations are at present, and a breakdown of where the staff are deployed by grade (platform versus ticket hall versus inside ticket office, say). Some of the safety / assistance models people are canvassing here could result in no headcount savings but possibly grade reductions?

the refunds via ticket machines would be problem its requires a staff card and bunch - if person has cash - its impossible to refund from machine - but if station is very quiet - staff can close ticket offices - and they can reopen if needed or go to small booth equipped with ticket machine for staff use
in derby station - there is 4 ticket windows - but when its quiet - its can reduced to 1 open window - keeping ticket office manned all times - only close fully is when traffic is quiet (towards end of service) which at that point - the ticket barriers will open
in USA - generally you find station manager or Customer assistant sitting in booth doing transactions and helping people - but Chiagao had ticket booths but replaced with customer assistance booths but still retains ticket selling machines inside booths for anything that may happen example machines are out of order
if ticket office closure would happen - its would send alot people on buses - its not ideal some locations are far away to get ticket also no ticket buying machines on trains either if ticket machine/barrier is out of order means impossible to check tickets - its would be problem

wood lane station has no ticket office but does have assistance window but i am not sure if they have machine to deal with refunds or issue new tickets for someone to replace the damaged ticket at that station

at one time at rotterdam - we had broken ticket which had to get staff to replace for free of charge - its was smart card

excatly - that's why its needed keep ticket offices - its should been used for that type - without them means no replacemnet - its would take longer

The next question to ask is what is the benefit of those staff and do the customers at certain locations have simpler or more complex ticketing / service needs? You rightly cite the issues with Oyster if the customer or the equipment don't behave as expected. For obvious reasons there are necessary process based "controls" about resetting journeys, issuing new cards or handling refunds. Now TfL could take a view that says "sorry can't do any of this at a station" (as happens with NR stations without any Oyster facility in ticket offices) and you must phone us or go to "bland office block in remote suburb" to be dealt with. Now that might be cheap for TfL but it's very inconvenient and potentially time / money costly for individuals. I would fully expect that sort of option to be on the list of the transformation team although it probably won't be the option that is implemented.

I do not think it is appropriate to just apply a cost equation to this sort of analysis. There needs to be a proper appraisal of the benefits of providing staff - including those who deal with tickets - as well as a view of the disbenefits of removing staff or facilities from stations. There is an appraisal mechanism to do this but you need to have good underlying data about is actually happening for the right benefits and costs to be identified. I wonder if that data has been collected and validated?

There must also be a strategic context whereby decisions take into account the requisite influences on staffing decisions like ticketing and technology changes, the impact of upgrades and work to the railway and how demand will grow. A good example is what does this policy mean for Crossrail? Are we going to have a botched mess whereby outer area stations, currently run by TOCs, do have ticket offices and do sell a full range of ticket products (as they are required to do) but when you get to the bits run by LU there are no ticket offices at all and you can't buy a full range of NR tickets despite a National Rail service running through them? What sort of message does this send to passengers?

One of the most telling issues with the current Mayoral regime is that it keeps saying London's population has boomed and will continue to do so and it then goes on to (a) shut fire and police stations (b) remove staff from the transport network (c) not build enough houses (d) not expand the bus network and (e) not expand the tube network in any meaningful way. I will give the Mayor the thumbs up for the Line upgrades, Crossrail and the Overground capacity expansion but there is a lack of policy coherence. How can you justify having "conductors" on new buses which carry fewer people than other buses and at the same time have a policy of closing ticket offices and removing staff from the Underground? Err hello?