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Post by rsdworker on Aug 14, 2013 23:56:05 GMT
How would ANY of this differ from National Rail stations that are unstaffed or have no ticket offices? in NR stations - generally speaking - there commonly small stations can go unstaffed or no ticket offices but never in big cities to deal damaged or missing tickets - people have to travel to neareset staffed station to do this but sometimes train inspector does the refunds on train in light rail (docklands or trams) they generally have no ticket offices anywhere in stations (few expectations) sheffield trams has park and ride which sells tickets (blackpool - there some places to get tickets to deal the refunds or damaged tickets on those light rail - often tram inspector does the ticketing and refunds and etc (docklands has some ticket offices also linked with TFL which they can do refunds at the tune stations)
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 1,316
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Post by castlebar on Aug 15, 2013 10:28:26 GMT
IMHO, Your comment is one of the most selfish l have ever read on these boards That's nice... I'm not allowed to express an opinion that disagrees with yours? What do you think would be achieved by closing ticket offices? A potential reduction in the number of staff that are based at stations, sitting in ticket offices helping 1 person every hour rather than being out helping more customers by being visible around the station(s) or alternatively in other roles within TfL / LU Do you think fares will go down? I fully expect fares to remain the same, or to go up. I fully expect this to continue while TfL are essentially held hostage by unions who complain the very second that TfL might be forced to do what many other employers are being forced to do in the private and public sector. Do you think that putting people on the dole and leaving intending travellers potentially helpless is useful? I don't think I said in my post that the staff should be sacked, or put on the dole... However, I put it to you as to why LU should be any different than any other company that's having to make efficiency savings and are potentially making staff redundant or redeploying them to other roles. How would ANY of this differ from National Rail stations that are unstaffed or have no ticket offices?
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 1,316
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Post by castlebar on Aug 15, 2013 10:37:38 GMT
IMHO, Your comment is one of the most selfish l have ever read on these boards That's nice... I'm not allowed to express an opinion that disagrees with yours? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Where have l ever said that you are not allowed to express an opinion?? Of course you can express any opinion you wish (as long as it is within the forum rules) but just don't expect me to agree with it. But do not be "economical with the truth" because l have expressed mine. My reply began "IMHO", denoting that I am expressing my opinion which just polarises yours. NEVER accuse me of not allowing you to express your own opinion, however selfish it is. I have no interest in any further discussion with you until you apologise for the untruth that I am alleged to have said "I'm not allowed to express an opinion that disagrees with yours?".
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 15, 2013 11:06:51 GMT
Mod comment As has been said, discussion is welcomed as long as it remains within forum rules. Castlebar - the phrase which you seem to have taken exception to comes across as a (probably rhetorical) question rather than a statement. There's no need for angst in this thread - I'd like everybody to keep it civil, please, or else it'll have to be locked.
Thanks
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Post by trt on Aug 15, 2013 11:11:45 GMT
The writing has been on the walls for a while. The gradual reduction in opening hours all over the network... They'll have been watching the effect of this and judging if they could get away with something more drastic. As for the travelling public... well, I've not seen fares go down.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 15, 2013 18:18:25 GMT
The writing has been on the walls for a while. The gradual reduction in opening hours all over the network... They'll have been watching the effect of this and judging if they could get away with something more drastic. As for the travelling public... well, I've not seen fares go down. Fares are never going to go down under the current Mayoral regime. Mr Johnson is quite clearly committed to raising fares at the level set out in the TfL business plan. This has, though, been reduced from RPI+2% to RPI+1% after the government pannicked about the political consequences of their revised RPI+3% increase for National Rail fares. TfL's formula got pulled down as a result of the knee jerk reaction. The government have significantly reduced TfL's revenue grant for several years and this continues into the future. Further the Mayor has demanded even more efficiencies so as to reduce TfL's costs. Given all this context plus the financial drain from loss making schemes like Cycle Hire and the Cable Car plus adding conductors on New Bus for London routes it is no wonder that TfL are going to be desparate for every single £ they can get hold of. I suspect that TfL would be privately pressing the Mayor to push for an inflation +2% or +3% increase for 2014 to make up as much short fall as possible but I don't think the politics are such that this will happen. Passengers and, I suspect, government ministers would be outraged at such a money grab given all the play about "the cost of living squeeze". Therefore pressure remains to get the cost of operations down and down and down. The only times fares might be frozen or reduced would be under different political control and in better financial circumstances where local government (including TfL) was not being squeezed as harshly as it is now. Personally I can't see this happening for at least 5 years, possibly longer.
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cso
Posts: 1,043
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Post by cso on Aug 16, 2013 18:15:26 GMT
From what I heard on the radio this afternoon, this has now been officially 'announced' (confirmed) by TfL/LU although apprently that was in the Standard, and I've not read that tonight.
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Post by malcolmffc on Aug 16, 2013 19:55:45 GMT
I can't see any need for ticket offices at LUL stations other than those that serve major entry points to London where there are likely to be lots of customers who don't know the system. That is to say, National Rail terminii, Heathrow and a few major interchange locations like Stratford.
Everywhere else, 99% of things people need to do can be handled by ticket machines or online. Far better to have the staff who currently sit serving a queue of people trying to up their PAYG by £1 to be out helping people use the TVMs and give directions. In the very rare situations where a TVM or online access can't achieve what the customer wants, they can just go to one of the major ticket offices that would stay.
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Post by orienteer on Aug 16, 2013 21:34:38 GMT
I can't see any need for ticket offices at LUL stations other than those that serve major entry points to London where there are likely to be lots of customers who don't know the system. That is to say, National Rail terminii, Heathrow and a few major interchange locations like Stratford. Everywhere else, 99% of things people need to do can be handled by ticket machines or online. Far better to have the staff who currently sit serving a queue of people trying to up their PAYG by £1 to be out helping people use the TVMs and give directions. In the very rare situations where a TVM or online access can't achieve what the customer wants, they can just go to one of the major ticket offices that would stay. Agreed. But many more ticket machines will have to be installed, and better maintained so they don't run out of change as often as they do at present. Japanese railway stations do not have any manned ticket offices (except for making reservations), only banks of ticket machines.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 16, 2013 22:22:21 GMT
I can't see any need for ticket offices at LUL stations other than those that serve major entry points to London where there are likely to be lots of customers who don't know the system. That is to say, National Rail terminii, Heathrow and a few major interchange locations like Stratford. Everywhere else, 99% of things people need to do can be handled by ticket machines or online. Far better to have the staff who currently sit serving a queue of people trying to up their PAYG by £1 to be out helping people use the TVMs and give directions. In the very rare situations where a TVM or online access can't achieve what the customer wants, they can just go to one of the major ticket offices that would stay. A simple example. I have an Annual Travelcard. I get a Gold Card as part of that transaction and I am entitled to have a discount set on the Oyster Card. You cannot buy an annual ticket from a ticket machine. If you order on line then you will get the ticket uploaded via a gate but it takes TfL *1 month* to print a Gold Card and send it in the post. TfL confirmed this to me when I enquired last year. I am not aware of any "automatic" way to have the discount set. This then creates a situation where people lose Gold Card benefits for a month or worse end in a situation where the discount might have been set in a previous year but the passenger would not have the supporting gold card to support any discounted off peak travel. If that person was subject to a revenue check then they could be placed in an indivious position of having no supporting Gold Card because it takes 1 month to send one and being at risk of prosecution for fraudulent travel because there is no way to remotely remove the discount previously set on the Oyster Card (unless it has an expiry date). This is an example where TfL have to find a much better way of dealing with these more involved transactions before they remove ticket offices anywhere. It takes between 1-2 minutes to get the transaction done properly at a suburban ticket office with a competent clerk behind the window. I do not see why I should drag myself to Kings Cross in some future scenario to spend over £1,000 with TfL just to get a proper service because TfL can't organise the sale transaction and fraud controls to work via a ticket machine or on-line. Surely Annual Ticket holders are particularly valuable customers given the vast amount of cash handed over in one go and the fact that they only make 1 sale transaction rather than loads at ticket offices? On a related note, in terms of cost cutting, TfL have just launched a consultation process for the removal of cash transactions on all TfL buses. This is to save £24m per annum. Money overrules customer service and convenience.
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Chris M
Global Moderator
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Post by Chris M on Aug 17, 2013 0:29:04 GMT
On a related note, in terms of cost cutting, TfL have just launched a consultation process for the removal of cash transactions on all TfL buses. This is to save £24m per annum. Money overrules customer service and convenience. It isn't quite as simple as that on buses, as cash transactions take longer than Oyster ones and so can lead to slower and less reliable journey times. This isn't an issue when conductors issue tickets, obviously, but TfL's budget is being squeezed by both Central government and by Boris' vanity schemes so they have to make whatever savings they can.
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Post by rsdworker on Aug 17, 2013 8:21:43 GMT
but they have staff in ticket machine rooms - when customer presses help - a window opens and man appears - its seen on photos but i think TFL is doing wrong - means more strikes and alot staff will be not happy - look at other common cities in world - they have staffed stations with either ticket office or ticket kiosk with machines or just ticket machine
copehagen metro has no staff at ticket halls and only 1 or 2 machines installed but at busy stations they install 3 or 5 machines in airport station is manned since there is ticket office at other location within station selling railway tickets the metro has no ticket offices but machines
Rotterdam metro - some stations have ticket windows but commonly they are closed but if required - staff can open up if needed but staff can help with ticket machine the main ticket office is at Beurs station which handles all the issues and queries
Amsterdam metro commonly you don't find any ticket offices in metro - only travel centres (GVB sales centres) - stations are manned execpt line 51 section which is unmanned but also NS stations which co join the metro station (has ticket offices) the issues and refunds can be done at sales centres
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paulsw2
My Train Runs For Those Who Wait Not Wait For Those That Run
Posts: 302
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Post by paulsw2 on Aug 17, 2013 11:38:27 GMT
One problem that customers are having NOW is that when they wish to return Oyster cards for the deposit etc there is nowhere open and NO facilities on the station to do so.
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Post by revupminster on Aug 17, 2013 13:42:20 GMT
Can any member state here that no station is left unmanned in the outer area nowadays. As I said in my first post it was common in the 1990's. Hence the East end of the District was known as bandit country. Managers made a decision to leave Northern line stations unmanned at night. This was attested by a retired manager giving a talk at a LURS meeting.
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Post by rsdworker on Aug 17, 2013 16:04:59 GMT
Can any member state here that no station is left unmanned in the outer area nowadays. As I said in my first post it was common in the 1990's. Hence the East end of the District was known as bandit country. Managers made a decision to leave Northern line stations unmanned at night. This was attested by a retired manager giving a talk at a LURS meeting. that's isn't health and safety law states that each station has be manned from first to last trains also if fire occurs in station in night - firefighters has to try to open the locked door - has be staffed all times - in unmanned (tram or bus) which doesn't require staff be there but a guard would suffice to deal with problems
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Post by revupminster on Aug 17, 2013 16:20:53 GMT
Can any member state here that no station is left unmanned in the outer area nowadays. As I said in my first post it was common in the 1990's. Hence the East end of the District was known as bandit country. Managers made a decision to leave Northern line stations unmanned at night. This was attested by a retired manager giving a talk at a LURS meeting. that's isn't health and safety law states that each station has be manned from first to last trains also if fire occurs in station in night - firefighters has to try to open the locked door - has be staffed all times - in unmanned (tram or bus) which doesn't require staff be there but a guard would suffice to deal with problems The Northern line stations were not locked. On the District Line the next station supervisor got a taxi and locked up, the keys having been left by the last supervisor at the demanned station, and returned to his station. I would almost bet this still happens. As an aside on Boxing Day one supervisor had all the keys and unlocked all the stations. Of course a security guard such as Tesco provide in some of their late opening express stores, such as Cranham, would be cheaper than a supervisor.
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 17, 2013 16:57:12 GMT
Can any member state here that no station is left unmanned in the outer area nowadays. As I said in my first post it was common in the 1990's. Hence the East end of the District was known as bandit country. Managers made a decision to leave Northern line stations unmanned at night. This was attested by a retired manager giving a talk at a LURS meeting. Aslefshrugged has said in his blog a number of times that there's often been no one at a number of stations at the east end of the Central line to lamp out the last train.
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Post by malcolmffc on Aug 23, 2013 12:26:23 GMT
A simple example. I have an Annual Travelcard. I get a Gold Card as part of that transaction and I am entitled to have a discount set on the Oyster Card. You cannot buy an annual ticket from a ticket machine. If you order on line then you will get the ticket uploaded via a gate but it takes TfL *1 month* to print a Gold Card and send it in the post. TfL confirmed this to me when I enquired last year. I am not aware of any "automatic" way to have the discount set. This then creates a situation where people lose Gold Card benefits for a month or worse end in a situation where the discount might have been set in a previous year but the passenger would not have the supporting gold card to support any discounted off peak travel. If that person was subject to a revenue check then they could be placed in an indivious position of having no supporting Gold Card because it takes 1 month to send one and being at risk of prosecution for fraudulent travel because there is no way to remotely remove the discount previously set on the Oyster Card (unless it has an expiry date). This is an example where TfL have to find a much better way of dealing with these more involved transactions before they remove ticket offices anywhere. It takes between 1-2 minutes to get the transaction done properly at a suburban ticket office with a competent clerk behind the window.. Your example illustrates my point. A once-a-year occurrence, which can be solved by TfL improving the time it takes ot print and dispatch a Gold Card, not by keeping hundreds of unnecessary ticket offices open.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 23, 2013 18:24:53 GMT
Your example illustrates my point. A once-a-year occurrence, which can be solved by TfL improving the time it takes ot print and dispatch a Gold Card, not by keeping hundreds of unnecessary ticket offices open. You do, however, have to ask why what would have been a new process [1] was designed in such an utterly shambolic way. Why has it not been solved already? This is the sort of thing that should have been designed to be printed at home (given you can't use the printed Gold Card for travel) or else available for printing and collection at any ticket machine and / or Ticket Stop. If there had been some forethought and a proper strategy then processes and equipment upgrades would have taken place over the last couple of years to ensure that these cumbersome processes had been removed or radically simplified so there is a seamless and convenient service for passengers. I know some processes have been made accessible via POMs to staff in ticket halls but that doesn't solve the annual ticket issue or setting discount entitlements on Oyster Cards. Until then I don't want to be forced to travel miles just to buy a ticket. I suspect that many other people will feel exactly the same way. [1] selling high value tickets on line
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 19:49:07 GMT
It's not just a matter of having the printed Gold Card, it's having the Gold Card discount applied to the Oyster pre-pay. Currently that can only be done at an Underground ticket office.
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Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,443
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Post by Chris M on Aug 23, 2013 19:58:28 GMT
malcolmffc and snoggle - please could you adjust the quoting in your recent messages. I'm not sure how my name has become attached to it, but the words "Your example illustrates my point. A once-a-year occurrence, which can be solved by TfL improving the time it takes ot print and dispatch a Gold Card, not by keeping hundreds of unnecessary ticket offices open." were written by malcolmffc not me. Thanks.
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Dom K
Global Moderator
The future is bright
Posts: 1,823
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Post by Dom K on Aug 23, 2013 21:10:34 GMT
It's not just a matter of having the printed Gold Card, it's having the Gold Card discount applied to the Oyster pre-pay. Currently that can only be done at an Underground ticket office. A bit off topic, I have a gold card I got when I got my annual bus pass! What benefits do I get with this if any?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 23:21:24 GMT
It's not just a matter of having the printed Gold Card, it's having the Gold Card discount applied to the Oyster pre-pay. Currently that can only be done at an Underground ticket office. A bit off topic, I have a gold card I got when I got my annual bus pass! What benefits do I get with this if any? See this page for Gold Card benefits
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Post by southfieldschris on Aug 24, 2013 15:50:47 GMT
It's not just a matter of having the printed Gold Card, it's having the Gold Card discount applied to the Oyster pre-pay. Currently that can only be done at an Underground ticket office. Yes, currently, but the technology to make that not true already exists. All that would be required is a special Gold Oyster Card which automatically credited itself with the right percentage extra value when loaded with pre-pay credit. Simples!
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 24, 2013 15:56:34 GMT
malcolmffc and snoggle - please could you adjust the quoting in your recent messages. I'm not sure how my name has become attached to it, but the words "Your example illustrates my point. A once-a-year occurrence, which can be solved by TfL improving the time it takes ot print and dispatch a Gold Card, not by keeping hundreds of unnecessary ticket offices open." were written by malcolmffc not me. Thanks. I have had a review and edited posts so that quotes are now correctly attributed. Unfortunately with v5 if you open a quote without closing it, the software autocompletes for you at the end of your post. This is not the first time this has happened and I'm sure it won't be the last. Using the full reply option (rather than quick reply) allows you to preview your post before creating it, which can help identifying errors.
If anyone considered that they have been attributed to a quote that is not theirs, just drop a PM to a moderator or the original poster and it can be tweaked.
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