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Post by melikepie on Jan 23, 2012 12:38:37 GMT
Why do Piccadilly trains only stop late evening and early morning there?
Why was that petition a while back unsuccessful?
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Post by charleyfarley on Jan 23, 2012 14:57:50 GMT
The station is served by District Line trains. Westbound passengers can change at Barons Court or Hammersmith while eastbound passengers can change at Acton Town. It is assumed that very little airport traffic originates from or terminates at Turnham Green so no real need for a duplicate service
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jan 23, 2012 15:05:37 GMT
There used to be a sign on the waiting shelter on I think it was Platform 1 at Hounslow West when it was a terminus, stating that Picc trains stopped at Turnham Green before _ and after __ and all day Sundays. This pattern is ancestral therefore. The only time that I have found the non-stopping an inconvenience is when I wanted to get from Hounslow to Richmond, which meant either a change at Acton Town to a District or at Hammersmith for a Richmond District. I would possibly have been better of going by bus!
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jan 23, 2012 15:45:29 GMT
Charleyf, Why do you think airport traffic has anything to do with it?? It honestly doesn't. Piccs started to call at Turnham Green sometime around or just after when the District ran to Hounslow West and before an airport extension was ever considered.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 23, 2012 16:43:44 GMT
Piccs started to call at Turnham Green sometime around or just after when the District ran to Hounslow West A little later - the District started to run to Hounslow West in 1884, long before the Picadilly existed. I think you mean around the time the District stopped running to Hounslow, which was (according to CULG) Oct 9th 1964. The Piccadilly started to call at TG on 23rd June 1963 and has done so ever since, except for a brief period in 1996/7 (anyone know why?) In the late 1970s, when I used TG a lot late at night, the only way of knowing for sure at Hammersmith was to look at the departure screens (the old backlit ones) which had a "not stopping at" section for the four stations between there and Acton Town, and see if TG lit up or stayed dark. On one occasion, having missed the last Tube, I got the next one (i.e the first the next morning), which called at all stations, using the District's tracks to do so
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jan 23, 2012 16:55:12 GMT
BORING MODE: [Hounslow Barracks, which the original station was named-after of course by the Metropolitan & District Railway, still exists and has some beautiful old listed buidings.] BORING MODE 2: [The white sign on the old P1 at Hounslow West was still there for some years after the old trackbed had been filled-in! No doubt it was eventually saved]. ;D The other way to check if the Picc was stopping at TG was by looking for the 'reminder boards' for the drivers at the platform ends at Hammersmith WB Fast and Acton Town EB. The Hammersmith WB Local light box used to say 'PICCADILLY LINE' I seem to recall and didn't have the 'NOT STOPPING AT...' for obvious reasons, and no ''HOUNSLOW WEST', 'HATTON CROSS' and 'HEATHROW CENTRAL'. It probably had 'ACTON TOWN' and 'NORTHFIELDS' of course.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 23, 2012 17:41:33 GMT
In the late 1970s, when I used TG a lot late at night, the only way of knowing for sure at Hammersmith was to look at the departure screens (the old backlit ones) which had a "not stopping at" section for the four stations between there and Acton Town, and see if TG lit up or stayed dark. That, and the one at Acton, were controlled by a small switch just below the describer to be operated at the appropriate times by the on-site station staff - invariably they forgot!
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jan 23, 2012 17:42:12 GMT
Oracle > You are completely correct. I wrote in a state of "high agitation" regarding the "airport explanation" which is completely off the wall. With reference to another current thread ("Double announcements") it was much easier 40 years ago to know whether a Picc was going to stop at T.G. or not. At 2228 the other night, there was no announcement on Hammersmith platform, nor on the train either, until the train set off towards Acton. It did stop at T.G., but the system needs improving, and fast. Some posters says "late" but don't specify what "late" actually means. This is a shambles. A system that used to work has been replaced with something that sometimes works, but not always, and never as well as what there once was. Nobody will admit to it of course.
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Post by v52gc on Jan 24, 2012 8:47:31 GMT
Castlebar, why don't you just ask the driver at Hammersmith. I'm sure most would be happy to help. Especially if you explain there were no station announcements. (don't use this technique at midnight though!)
Just to add a note about the signs indicating the stopping pattern, the one at Barons Court still works but more often than not is wrong, particularly around the 2230 time when you need it!
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jan 24, 2012 9:37:49 GMT
@ v52gc "Castlebar, why don't you just ask the driver at Hammersmith"
Is that a serious question?
1 When you get in at Covent Garden, you don't know exactly when its going to arrive at Hammersmith 1a Why should l have to?? Proper announcements and info would save ALL the intending Turnham Green pax having to ask. Your solution is not a feasible solution.
2 When you're in a car in the middle of a train, how do we do that?
3 I don't have his mobile number
You also say "Just to add a note about the signs indicating the stopping pattern, the one at Barons Court still works but more often than not is wrong, particularly around the 2230 time when you need it!" . Well, l think this proves that the current system is flawed whereas 40 years ago this was never an issue. Therefore, we are in a WORSE situation now than 40 years ago. . Q.E.D.
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Post by charleyfarley on Jan 24, 2012 9:47:44 GMT
How is the airport comment "off the wall"? Turnham Green Station is merely a local station which receives a frequent service of District Line trains. Its passenger numbers are surely fairly similar to Stamford Brook and Chiswick Park. Why does it need a duplicate service provided by another line other than as a convenience for local people wishing to travel either to/from the airport or to Harrow/Uxbridge
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jan 24, 2012 10:09:10 GMT
charleyf : > > It's "off the wall" because (a) it is an interchange station for the Richmond branch. You will know that the other 3 are not. (b) Decision to stop some Piccs there was nothing to do with the airport (your original answer) as Piccs stopped at TG long before Piccs served Heathrow. Again, you should know that.
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Post by v52gc on Jan 24, 2012 12:47:43 GMT
@ v52gc "Castlebar, why don't you just ask the driver at Hammersmith" Is that a serious question? More a suggestion to your problem at Hammersmith, but yes, it is a Human being at the front of the train and they will definitely know if the train is stopping or not at Turnham Green. 1 When you get in at Covent Garden, you don't know exactly when its going to arrive at Hammersmith 1a Why should l have to?? Proper announcements and info would save ALL the intending Turnham Green pax having to ask. Your solution is not a feasible solution. 2 When you're in a car in the middle of a train, how do we do that? 3 I don't have his mobile number I was answering to your example of being at Hammersmith. But if you got on at Covent Garden then you'll need to listen out for the onboard announcement when in the platform at Hammersmith. If the driver is very nice they might let you know when leaving Barons Court... You also say "Just to add a note about the signs indicating the stopping pattern, the one at Barons Court still works but more often than not is wrong, particularly around the 2230 time when you need it!" . Well, l think this proves that the current system is flawed whereas 40 years ago this was never an issue. The current system is not flawed, there is an announcement, or should be, before the train leaves Hammersmith Westbound or Acton Town Eastbound all day letting you know what the next stop will be. As for the described at Barons Court, it is probably faulty or just old tech maybe not working well with newer tech, but not flawed in my opinion. If you are travelling around the 2230 mark to Turnham Green then I think one just needs to be a little more on the ball. I don't believe more handholding to be the answer. And if a passenger is so unsure then they can use a District Line service which will definitely stop there. Back OT as to why the Pic has an odd stopping pattern at Turnham Green I have absolutely no idea! But agree its a District station.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jan 24, 2012 13:19:15 GMT
@ v52gc......."there is an announcement, or should be,............"
Yes, there SHOULD be. . Exactly right. In the case l'm referring to there wasn't. . There often isn't. On train, the announcement was when the doors were closing. Nothing at Hammersmith and nothing when pax had an opportunity to get on/off.
My argument stands.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 25, 2012 2:09:28 GMT
Can we be civil rather than making arguments Anyway, the question in the OP still hasn't been answered. Putting it as simply as possible, there are too many Piccadilly line trains running during the peaks/inter peaks - the signalling isn't set up for stopping trains at Turnham Green with the number that are on the railway so they just carry on at line speed. They do however stop at the extremes of the day as less trains are on the railway......the signalling can the stoppers and so it all becomes feasible. There is an added benefit in serving the station at these times too - the District has a reduced service so the Picc stoppers help keep up capacity. Popping back to the lack of information on Picc stopper times...........aren't the times shown on the in car maps? I'm sure it used to be ......
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 8:18:29 GMT
This saturday Piccadilly line trains are calling at Turnham Green, due to other closures on the District
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Post by Hassaan on Jan 25, 2012 17:50:46 GMT
Can we be civil rather than making arguments Anyway, the question in the OP still hasn't been answered. Putting it as simply as possible, there are too many Piccadilly line trains running during the peaks/inter peaks - the signalling isn't set up for stopping trains at Turnham Green with the number that are on the railway so they just carry on at line speed. They do however stop at the extremes of the day as less trains are on the railway......the signalling can the stoppers and so it all becomes feasible. There is an added benefit in serving the station at these times too - the District has a reduced service so the Picc stoppers help keep up capacity. Popping back to the lack of information on Picc stopper times...........aren't the times shown on the in car maps? I'm sure it used to be ...... IIRC it doesn't - it just states "early mornings and late evenings" (or something like that).
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Post by melikepie on Jan 25, 2012 18:03:52 GMT
I was also wondering the history of the unusual patterns,
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jan 25, 2012 18:15:43 GMT
Thank you Hassaan. I KNEW I wasn't dreaming it up. The current uncertainty is not satisfactory. This coupled with a lack of announcements on train and at Hammersmith. I rest my case.
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Post by v52gc on Jan 26, 2012 0:32:06 GMT
Sorry (this is the last time I will say this, promised ;D), but castlebar, there ARE announcements on the trains at Hammersmith and at Acton Town. It is part of the DVA interchange setup for those stations. This announcement cannot be skipped unless the DVA is setup for the train to stop at all the stations between Hammersmith and Acton Town. Could you please stop claiming that there are no announcements to this effect.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jan 26, 2012 8:18:42 GMT
I refer to comment number 13............" On train, the announcement was when the doors were closing. Nothing at Hammersmith and nothing when pax had an opportunity to get on/off."............... I'm afraid such an announcement is of little use. It is unlikeky that other pax in the car for T.G. were all struck with a simultaneous temporary deafness of Biblical proportion to prevent us hearing any announcemnt made on platform.
We shall have to agree to differ and this is my last comment on this subject.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jan 28, 2012 12:40:41 GMT
I was also wondering the history of the unusual patterns, One very likely reason (please confirm tubeprune/reganorak/a.n.other) is that directly outside TG stn was Chiswick Works - not only a huge employer in itself but also the training base for all bus conductors/drivers from all over the system - in other words a very "LT" station. Hence when I went conductor training (start 0630) my Picc train from Oakwood conveniently stopped at TG, avoiding me having to change. With Chiswick Works long closed the original reason for the Picc stoppers has vanished in the mists of time, but as Colin says, keeps a good service pattern in the tails of the service.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 28, 2012 13:13:45 GMT
One very likely reason (please confirm tubeprune/reganorak/a.n.other) is that directly outside TG stn was Chiswick Works - Doubt it - Gunnersbury, Chiswick Park and even Acton Town are all closer to Chiswick Works than TG is.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 16:48:13 GMT
Turnham Green ... passenger numbers are surely fairly similar to Stamford Brook and Chiswick Park. Not at all. Turnham Green has more passengers entering or exiting than any Piccadilly or District station between Hammersmith and Heathrow. While in theory the District provides an adequate, if less convenient, alternative, a lot of the local pressure for the Piccadilly to stop there all day is from people who have had to wait in vain for a District train while five Piccadilly trains rush through the station (or if westbound often crawl through in the queue to get into Acton Town). Our impression is that the official District reliability must be measured on the trunk section, as it seems more flaky out west. Colin is right about the Picc signalling at TG not being set up for stopping trains at peak frequencies. But the current state of the timetable, with pauses for regulation all over the place, means that that explanation now lacks credibility.
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Post by londonstuff on Jan 28, 2012 20:42:26 GMT
+1 with everything you've said. I worked there for 4 years and it was so frustrating to watch 6, 7, 8 even 10 Piccadilly line trains whizz past that, against popular opinion, were not full at all. The station is extremely busy both from commuters during the day and people visiting the local area at night and, frankly, the current service there, in relation to the number of passengers that use it, sucks. People always say that the District line service is good enough - it's not. It's also annoying to get held up at Hyde Park Corner every journey to 'regulate the service' when that time could quite easily be used to stop at TG. If this isn't possible, Barons Court always seems far less busy and is easy walking distance to West Kensington and/or Hammersmith. The only reason not to do this is because it's easier to simply to maintain the status quo. Turnham Green ... passenger numbers are surely fairly similar to Stamford Brook and Chiswick Park. Not at all. Turnham Green has more passengers entering or exiting than any Piccadilly or District station between Hammersmith and Heathrow. While in theory the District provides an adequate, if less convenient, alternative, a lot of the local pressure for the Piccadilly to stop there all day is from people who have had to wait in vain for a District train while five Piccadilly trains rush through the station (or if westbound often crawl through in the queue to get into Acton Town). Our impression is that the official District reliability must be measured on the trunk section, as it seems more flaky out west. Colin is right about the Picc signalling at TG not being set up for stopping trains at peak frequencies. But the current state of the timetable, with pauses for regulation all over the place, means that that explanation now lacks credibility.
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Post by tedbarclay on Jan 28, 2012 21:47:36 GMT
Chiswick works was opposite Gunnersbury Station, not Turnham Green! Hope this helps Ted B I was also wondering the history of the unusual patterns, One very likely reason (please confirm tubeprune/reganorak/a.n.other) is that directly outside TG stn was Chiswick Works - not only a huge employer in itself but also the training base for all bus conductors/drivers from all over the system - in other words a very "LT" station. Hence when I went conductor training (start 0630) my Picc train from Oakwood conveniently stopped at TG, avoiding me having to change. With Chiswick Works long closed the original reason for the Picc stoppers has vanished in the mists of time, but as Colin says, keeps a good service pattern in the tails of the service.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 0:34:37 GMT
That's a common misconception by Turnham Green people. In fact Barons Court has more passenger entries and exits than Turnham Green. It seems less busy because the Piccadilly has scooped up all the waiting passengers before you get there on the District!
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Post by version3point1 on Jan 30, 2012 3:50:06 GMT
Just looking at the way the sections are in that area between Acton Town and Hammersmith, it only takes one train to be stopped at Turnham Green in either direction for trains to start getting bunched up together between Hammersmith and Acton Town. The fact it took me over seven minutes to get from Hammersmith to Turnham Green on around four occasions this weekend (both during the afternoon and then around 8 at night) and having to do an average of 20mph all the way is a testament to that. There were perhaps two other reasons I could think of that caused this, besides stopping at Turnham Green, but even so, there's a reason it's called the 'fast' and there's nothing more frustrating than getting up the hill past Hammersmith and around the bend, only to find that the station starter is on at Ravenscourt Park, because there's already two trains in section in front of me, with one probably sat or just leaving Turnham Green. As the sections are quite long on the fast, sometimes you can be sitting outside Ravenscourt Park or Stamford Brook for what seems like an age. And if it feels like an age to me as a driver, I'd hate to think what it feels like for everybody else. I'm not fussed about whether or not I stop at Turnham Green. But I'm now imagining the chaos it would cause stopping there on the fast line, during a weekday morning peak, when pretty much every single train we have on the Piccadilly line is running, with a train nearly every section there is available. Acton Town to Hammersmith would just be a logistical nightmare. All for stopping at one station in the middle of a section where we could be running at line speed to keep everything running evenly spaced. And whilst Turnham Green might get up in arms about that (and probably have), or any other reason that would say why we aren't or won't be stopping there regularly, I wouldn't want to deal with the backlash from the rest of London or businesses that need to get folks moving to or from Heathrow. Or wherever else where there is only have ONE tube line running through their station, not two. Does anybody know whether a draft timetable has ever been produced as part of a proposal for stopping at Turnham Green on a regular basis? Did those responsible for the petition ever put one forward? 1a Why should l have to?? Proper announcements and info would save ALL the intending Turnham Green pax having to ask. Your solution is not a feasible solution. People don't listen. And some don't look even look at signs anymore. I noticed today at Barons Court and Turnham Green platforms that there was some scrolling text information on the vids with the usual times for when the trains stop. When at Cockfosters, Arnos Grove, or any other terminus station, having changed ends, our duty books have the PTI codes that we need to enter in for the DVA to announce Turnham Green, provided our train is scheduled to stop. As soon as we open the doors at Hammersmith, this should initiate the DVA, which goes along the lines of "This is Hammersmith. Change here for the District line. This is a Piccadilly line service to Uxbridge. The next station is Turnham Green" and we can then choose to make an additional announcement on top of that. Note additional. The only time I know that this might not happen is if the driver has cut-out the announcements beforehand in order to make their own announcements (perhaps at Barons Court) and then forgotten to cut it back in. I know I've done it at least once – it's easily done. And sometimes PAs are the least of my worries when I coming into Hammersmith (far too many nut-nuts on the platforms there, not to mention various hazards on the approach...) Your experience sound like a one-off to be honest, and though the additional stop is poorly advertised in respect to visible signage, a personal experiment this weekend to see whether Turnham Green people actually stay on the Piccadilly line train (given there has been no District line service there) and whether or not they actually alight at Turnham Green highlighted to me the fact that most people just do not listen, whether it be a human announcement or an automated one: – There were staff on the Hammersmith platforms all weekend at all hours making announcements about the trains stopping ALL WEEKEND at Turnham Green – There were staff at Acton Town platforms all weekend making announcements about the trains stopping ALL WEEKEND at Turnham Green – After letting the DVA make the announcements at Hammersmith AS WELL AS announcing myself that the train would stop at Turnham Green and that the next station would be Turnham Green, I alight at Turnham Green and announce that, "This is Turnham Green," (if the signs aren't enough...) I've covered all my bases. Or so I thought. So then, how can I arrive at Acton Town, only to find that about two dozen people who were bound for Turnham Green are alighting at Acton Town now asking platform staff or tapping on my door to ask how to get back there? Surely, if there are announcements being made, this can't possibly happen?... And this is during a time when we were stopping all weekend with no District line, thus having no choice but to use the Piccadilly line to Turnham Green...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jan 31, 2012 15:45:24 GMT
I alighted from a westbound Piccadilly Line train at Hammersmith at around 1 pm today, and specifically listened out for an announcement about the next stop.
There was an automatic announcement on the train, but given that the doors began closing at almost exactly the same time the announcement started and were completely closed by the time the words "Acton Town" were spoken it wasn't much use to anybody. The train did not depart for another ~20-30 seconds so why the doors were shut before the announcement finished I don't know. There was no announcement prior to arriving at Acton Town (I boarded at South Kensington).
If the DLR's policy about short stations was applied, there would be announcements approaching Barons Court, between Barons Court and Hammersmith and on approach to Hammersmith. If the Northern Line's policy was applied there would be loud platform announcements about the next station served by every train in both directions before it's arrival and as it arrived.
There were no station announcements while the train doors were open, although about the time the train departed we were informed about the London Overground being suspended between Willesden Junction and Clapham Junction.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jan 31, 2012 16:02:57 GMT
Thank you Chris M. You said: "There was an automatic announcement on the train, but given that the doors began closing at almost exactly the same time the announcement started and were completely closed by the time the words "Acton Town" were spoken it wasn't much use to anybody. The train did not depart for another ~20-30 seconds so why the doors were shut before the announcement finished I don't know. There was no announcement prior to arriving at Acton Town (I boarded at South Kensington)."
This was my experience too. . Yet people who were not there, tell me on this thread and on another, that either I wasn't listening, or, I was making it all up. I look forward to reading their humble apologies. More importantly, I hope LU will now address this failing.
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