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Post by phillw48 on Dec 30, 2011 20:09:48 GMT
It seems strange to me that most of those who expect transport services to operate on Christmas Day or Boxing Day for the most part do not work on those days themselves. Another point is that it has been stated that 'Other countries have service on Christmas Day'. What other countries? Relatives of mine have just spent Christmas in Germany where there was no service on Christmas Day (Boxing Day is a normal day there).
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Colin
Advisor
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Post by Colin on Dec 30, 2011 20:39:23 GMT
Would there be any train ops who would be on contracts from the time that LU last ran Christmas day services who possibly could be compelled to work? No - all drivers are on the same terms & conditions of employment. Secondly in my line of work for me Christmas day is now entirely voluntary, however for those for whom it isnt generally work shifts finishing or start early to mid afternoon giving them some family time. What sorts of booking on times would train ops likely to have had on Christmas day, given the earlier shut down would it have been come in early and all done by late afternoon? The latter I would imagine from what I've seen of the timetables. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised that if management get their way and a service is run, it'll be more like 9am to 9pm minimum. Trouble is you either have everyone doing 8 hour shifts to ensure the maximum number are booked off, or you have everyone doing short shifts and book more on to work. Neither option will be popular. And of course other grades not mentioned so far, like stations & service control staff, can't even have less staff booked to work now that their numbers have been stripped to the bare minimum. For them every day is a normal day.
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Post by andypurk on Dec 30, 2011 20:52:04 GMT
It seems strange to me that most of those who expect transport services to operate on Christmas Day or Boxing Day for the most part do not work on those days themselves. Another point is that it has been stated that 'Other countries have service on Christmas Day'. What other countries? Relatives of mine have just spent Christmas in Germany where there was no service on Christmas Day (Boxing Day is a normal day there). Whereabouts in Germany? A quick search, on the DB website, shows plenty of trains scheduled. Both Inter City, Regional and the S-bahn (around Berlin).
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Post by phillw48 on Dec 30, 2011 23:49:47 GMT
It seems strange to me that most of those who expect transport services to operate on Christmas Day or Boxing Day for the most part do not work on those days themselves. Another point is that it has been stated that 'Other countries have service on Christmas Day'. What other countries? Relatives of mine have just spent Christmas in Germany where there was no service on Christmas Day (Boxing Day is a normal day there). Whereabouts in Germany? A quick search, on the DB website, shows plenty of trains scheduled. Both Inter City, Regional and the S-bahn (around Berlin). This was Northern Germany and quite rural I must admit.
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Post by citysig on Dec 31, 2011 0:54:42 GMT
Last week or so I haven't been around much, but I come back to find 1 or 2 of the "regular" seasonal threads surrounding working at Christmas.
First and foremost, the services on Christmas day finished that long ago that a large majority of LUL employees do not know of them. Therefore, when they joined the job, they joined with the knowledge that the system was closed on Christmas Day. Perhaps if we were always open, a handful of those working with us today would not be with us.
Next, happily at this point, the major supermarkets, National Rail, and the like all join us in being closed. There are less news bulletins on tv. There are less staff booked on to work at Hospitals, Fire Stations, Police Stations. Whilst the latter 3 are all still "functioning" there is a firm acknowledgement that the day is still special in this country, and overall there is much less demand for the services they all provide.
I don't care what religion everyone else is. I don't care how much I earn. What I do care about is there is still 1 day of the year where I can turn to my young children and say for certain that I will be there when they open their presents.
If you don't want for that, if you want to travel around like normal, then keep that to yourself, or maybe set up your own rival transport industry to take you and your "non-Christmas" friends around.
It sickens me that there are those in this country who want to see us go fully down the road of other countries and open every single day. So what if we don't? It is 1 day. Travel either side of the holiday or walk.
Once we open on Christmas Day, so will everything we serve. So the shops that stayed closed because nobody could get to them will also open, and so on, until everyone is working.
The dispute surrounding Boxing Day is not really about drivers getting even more money. The dispute is a stepping stone to ensure we are not all forced to work Christmas Day as well, and it is surprising that the other unions (normally hell-bent on taking action) sat back.
This is the UK, and, just like everywhere else, we have our traditions and I think we should stand firm and keep them. If that means everything closes for 1 day of the year, then so be it.
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Post by pakenhamtrain on Dec 31, 2011 3:57:05 GMT
'Other countries have service on Christmas Day'. What other countries? Australia. Public transport ran in Melbourne, Latrobe Valley, Sydney, Newcastle, Wollongong, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Canberra Adelaide and Perth. Outside the captials not as much(which is much more understandable) although it depends on where it is. In Adelaide the bus operators alter the rosters slightly so that drivers can at least have Christmas lunch or dinner. In Melbourne and Victoria it was free from first to last service. A side effect of that is V/Line trains have suffered overcrowding on some trains.
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Post by phillw48 on Dec 31, 2011 11:24:57 GMT
Well said Metcontrol. This has already happened with regard to Sundays. The main reason that other unions are not involved is that most or all of their members are unaffected or it is part of their agreed conditions or regrettably because some unions are now to weak to protect their members and many workers are not in unions. As for Christmas working in other countries there is often local circumstances that has an effect, in Australia for example it is mid-summer and there is probably a demand for leisure travel as opposed for things such as shopping. Another thing that has only been briefly mentioned if at all is the cost of running such services, this is why the main line services do not operate on Boxing Day, they see no profit in doing so.
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pitdiver
No longer gainfully employed
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Post by pitdiver on Dec 31, 2011 11:47:14 GMT
Well said from me Metcontrol. As far as shops opening on Boxing Day, where I live our Tescos Supermarket is closed and also on New Year's Day. If Tesco's don't think it's worth opening on these days then it's not worth opening. I would also like to add that many years ago my Father was in hospital over the Christmas Period. He said " I know you cant get to see me on Christmas or Boxing Day so don't worry". So I went to see him on Christmas Eve instead. About a week later he died. The point is that I adjusted my plans accordingly depending on what was available not expect public transport to run at my requirements.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Dec 31, 2011 12:22:15 GMT
Well said Metcontrol. This has already happened with regard to Sundays. Oh so true! With so many years' statistics to call on, it now seems certain that regular Sunday opening didn't profit any of the big stores or chains. Any (marginal) increase in sales over a whole week was more than offset by the cost of employing staff for the extra day - a 14% increase in staff costs when you think about it...... But we are where we are, and unless ALL the major chains UNANIMOUSLY agreed to stay closed again on Sundays it just won't happen. And I suspect it is this (no going backwards) that is keeping the unions honest (to their members ) regarding working over the Christmas break.
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Post by rayb on Dec 31, 2011 13:09:55 GMT
Not at all - if you're going to attack my job don't be surprised if I defend my corner. Err...I wasn't attacking, I was responding. In any event, the point still stands - all the things you were saying "you" do are part and parcel of the life you signed up for, so don't try and make it sound like its an extra and we should all be grateful, please. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but I know roughly what it is and to be honest, I think it's a pretty good one, much like yourself. Every job has elements that you "have" to know in order to be able to perform it and claim the salary - it is not unique nor exclusive to T/O's so why bring it up? Some of the things I have to get involved in have potentially fatal consequences as well, but I don't demand extras or go crying into my beer or to the union about it - in fact, I'm not allowed to join a union. I wasn't. I suggested a change to all new contracts - please read my post again and stop being so defensive. Introduction of anything into new deals means that it "protects" those in post and will eventually become the norm when all the "old guard" have moved on or retired. As I suggested earlier - it is about time this annual fiasco was put to bed - either we need the service or we don't. Like it or not we are under a massive spotlight for next 12 months, moreso than at any time since WWII and vital services like LUL are one of the things we as a City and a Nation will be marked by. Anyone looking at us right now will see the promise of a "world class" system and "excellent service" but when the rose tinted specs come off, they see a system and a city that runs at the whim of the unions. Lets have a full BH service on 25/6th Dec. 2012 and see how it goes? BTW, I'm a former TUS-rep and have full support for anyone that is in a union, but common sense has to prevail when the Capital's image is at stake.
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Dec 31, 2011 14:15:17 GMT
Of course, the weekly season ticket is only approximately the cost of 3 1/2 to 4 day tickets, so a weekly holder hasn't really lost out at all. Also, this year, as Christmas Day was a Sunday have you really lost out on the normal week? I'll agree that as Christmas Day was at the weekend, then many people will not have lost out this year, but weekly season tickets for the tube no longer offer the savings that they once did. For example: a peak PAYG single between zones 1 and 4 is £3.40, whilst a seven day zones 1-4 travelcard is £39.40 (2011 prices), over 11½ single peak journeys. This means that most users will need to do a number of extra journeys each week over and above a five-day commute to make their travelcard worthwhile.
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Post by suncloud on Dec 31, 2011 16:11:24 GMT
I'm surprised TfL still don't run any service buses on Christmas Day, and while they still don't, I can't imagine Christmas Day tubes are on the cards.
I suspect provision for Christmas Day working will be written in to the 'Automatic Train Attendant' agreement, even if it's not used right away.
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Post by andypurk on Dec 31, 2011 20:43:34 GMT
Of course, the weekly season ticket is only approximately the cost of 3 1/2 to 4 day tickets, so a weekly holder hasn't really lost out at all. Also, this year, as Christmas Day was a Sunday have you really lost out on the normal week? I'll agree that as Christmas Day was at the weekend, then many people will not have lost out this year, but weekly season tickets for the tube no longer offer the savings that they once did. For example: a peak PAYG single between zones 1 and 4 is £3.40, whilst a seven day zones 1-4 travelcard is £39.40 (2011 prices), over 11½ single peak journeys. This means that most users will need to do a number of extra journeys each week over and above a five-day commute to make their travelcard worthwhile. But the Travelcard season prices are not based on the price of single tickets, but on the price of the equivalent daily Travelcard. It has been the case for a long time that the day Travelcard is approximately the price of three peak singles. Of course, back when the Travelcard (or Capitalcard as was) scheme started, the advantage was that the Underground was added onto the British Rail fare, so it made sense; since Oyster became widely available on National Rail that advantage has been lost within the zones (if traveling to zone 1) and weekly tickets are probably not worthwhile for 'simple' out and back journeys. However, they are still worthwhile if coming from further out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2011 21:43:53 GMT
Two things - first, people milling about. Good on them (if they're moving not idling). With our old famliy Christmases by far the best thing to do after an overlong oversize meal was to get out into the fresh air and go for a walk. Beat playing charades any day! Second, convenience stores. Great. Totally illustrates what was said upthread - those of other faiths surely have no desire or need to 'celebrate' Christmas - it's a normal day - so what more normal thing than to open your store you've worked so hard to get the cash to buy it for? Which is great, nothing like going for a stroll to work off the 8th mince pie that was hid from all other family and quietly scoffed! As to convenience stores opening on this day, as some are ran or owned by people who do not celebrate Christmas, why should they not open? BUT, when they do close to recognise their own day of rest/holiday/official observance day enshrined in their lives... who usually bemoans this lack of opening?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2012 17:33:43 GMT
I thought that everybody had a right to join a union (RayB).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2012 21:22:54 GMT
See here for how things changed since railways began, when Christmas Day had an ordinary service...
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Post by superteacher on Jan 1, 2012 21:34:21 GMT
See here for how things changed since railways began, when Christmas Day had an ordinary service... An interesting read, thanks for posting this.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jan 1, 2012 22:30:56 GMT
I thought that everybody had a right to join a union (RayB). They do, much as they have every right not to do so. However, for the old guard (as it were) Unions were a closed shop once upon a time, you either joined and got the job, or you didn't and went back to the labour exchange. Many (in my experience, militant) older Union members are from this era, and regard the union decisions and backing as untouchable... Right OR wrong.
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Post by phillw48 on Jan 1, 2012 23:45:51 GMT
See here for how things changed since railways began, when Christmas Day had an ordinary service... During the Victorian period for most workers Christmas day was a normal working day. If you read Dickens 'Christmas Carol' you will discover that the character Bob Cratchett had to work Christmas morning and that he was not paid for the half day he had off. Add to that more than 50% were employed 'in service' where working Christmas day was the norm.
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Post by citysig on Jan 2, 2012 23:43:36 GMT
During the Victorian period for most workers Christmas day was a normal working day. If you read Dickens 'Christmas Carol' you will discover that the character Bob Cratchett had to work Christmas morning and that he was not paid for the half day he had off. Add to that more than 50% were employed 'in service' where working Christmas day was the norm. Indeed, and look what a name Mr Scrooge got for himself. His attitude was considered so measly that it inspired a whole book (and countless re-tellings in all sorts of media including several film versions). Now imagine if Mr Dickens was around today, and was able to visit the managing directors of all companies planning to open on Christmas Day. I could help with a few images for the ghosts of Christmas yet to come. Christmas Day should be kept sacred - even if the Christmas message becomes "The greedy shall not shop and the humble will not work." Boxing Day has already been partially ruined for years, and we have to accept there's probably no way to go back from that. Thumbing through t'internet concerning trading laws, one thing struck me (and forgive me a patriotic moment). In England we are probably fairly alone in closing everything down for 1 day a year. We are also pretty much alone in keeping everything open, all day long, during our patron saints day (St George's Day, April 23rd by the way ) unless it happens to fall on Easter Sunday - the other day when those same managing directors have to pause the money-making clock.
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Post by 21146 on Jan 3, 2012 14:24:40 GMT
If the Victorian Christmas Day service warrants a similar provision in 2012, I suggest we bring back the 'Church Interval' on Sundays too (plus maybe additional interruptions on Friday and Saturday for other major world faiths?).
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Post by alfie on Jan 3, 2012 17:30:23 GMT
Does this include not working..?
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